Terrific find for Finnish & Russian grogs and JasonC

[John Kettler]

This amazing, deep site turned up while researching the Pak 40's ammo. JasonC should find it of interest because of the wealth of detailed material on the performance of some of the Russian antitank guns.

http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/MAIN.html

Regards,

John Kettler

[ May 20, 2007, 10:10 PM: Message edited by: John Kettler ]

[JasonC]

I've seen the site before. Used it for SMG info e.g.

But it is not very useful on the specific subject you mention, actually. It gives 3 different sets of figures for the Russian 45mm, two of which are believable (43-44mm at 30 degree angle and 500m range), one of which is much less so. For other Russian weapons, they give figures for the long 122, which we are already well familiar with from ISUs and IS tanks, and an archaic 76mm K00 field gun. (It gives the last 80mm at 100m incidentally).

Mostly though it instead gives the basic weight and range stuff and info on Finnish use and shell expenditure, which may be useful for operational study of Finnish artillery during the war, but isn't useful for Russian ATG performance.

[John Kettler]

JasonC,

Didn't know whether you had or not, but my heart was in the right place. I thought the background material was worth reading, and I especially liked the discussion of Molotov cocktails and demolition charges. That alone makes the site worthwhile, IMO. First discussion I've seen on how big an explosive charge it takes to kill what protection level of AFV. The data given for the guns are somewhat confusing in that the generic amo type is listed, yet the penetration numbers from Guns vs. Armour are tied to specifically nomenclatured Russian projectiles. The discussion on the site of ammo for the 45mm ATG strikes me as being both worth reading and useful.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Tero]

Originally posted by JasonC:

Mostly though it instead gives the basic weight and range stuff and info on Finnish use and shell expenditure, which may be useful for operational study of Finnish artillery during the war,

You should not use this site for that purpose though. This site is pure tech-spec, for operational stuff like ammo expenditure you should turn elsewhere. Text book conditions were rare in those days when it came to available ammo and stuff like that.

but isn't useful for Russian ATG performance.

Concur. The Finnish testing and measuring was different from the respective Soviet and German practises. Mind you, some of the penetration data was derived and extrapolated from battlefield experiences (or the tests were done using actual steel plates from target vehicles instead of generic slabs of steel) so that would account for some of the discrepencies between the Finnish and more commonly cited figures.

[JasonC]

Tero - untrue, look under the artillery sections and you will find they give absolute rounds expended for each gun type, both for the winter war and for the later "continuation war". Noteworthy right away is the quite high figure for older 3 inch field pieces, an order of magnitude more than for 105s e.g.

[Tero]

Originally posted by JasonC:

Tero - untrue, look under the artillery sections and you will find they give absolute rounds expended for each gun type, both for the winter war and for the later "continuation war".

As I said, the site is pure tech-spec. Citing total number of expended rounds does not even begin to tell how, where and when they were expended. Nor does it reflect their tactical use of the artillery formations as part of the force or during the battle. During Winter War one day a battery fire mission could be a whopping 8 rounds, another day 120 etc.

Noteworthy right away is the quite high figure for older 3 inch field pieces, an order of magnitude more than for 105s e.g.

That was the legacy of the depression.

As you know this relative lack of firepower (both caliber and limited availability of the ammo) affected the Finnish infantry tactics and doctrine very profoundly.

[ May 23, 2007, 01:24 AM: Message edited by: Tero ]