real life AT gun tactics....

[Folbec]

AT gun did not last long after a first shot, when faced with accurate overwatch tanks :

Memories of a russian soldier

This really feels like CMBB. Shoot once or twice at short range, get toasted.

[Alkiviadis]

Yes they die quickly, the key is to use real world tactics - multiple shooters/target, guns in cover, hidden with rescricted cover arcs till one has a 50% pK/target, I've posted about this before: "Think of layering your various weapons systems' EFFECTIVE (50% hit Probability) RANGES so that those ranges are all physically congruent, focused on a small area. Functionally this means one creates an "Engagement Zone" (mobile units shifting their positions) or a "Fire Sack" (fixed units pre-positioned)...the focal point should be where the OpFor MUST concentrate physically (a choke point, a bridge, a steppe surrounded by scattered trees, woods, pine stands, a road thru an open area surrounded by cover terrain when the ground conditions are Wet/Mud/Deep Snow, etc)."

and:

"Multiple tanks (or guns)/target was standard Soviet Army doctrine from '43 onward...up to a company/target. I've found this works very well. Any tactical doctrine must be adapted to the terrain/target matrix. You've got to know what can kill your target at what range/aspect ratio...and you must read the terrain, the terrain determines the deployment."

and:

"I've found the following works well for me:

1. Hold your fire until you have a 50% kill probability, this means generally close range and/or flank/rear shots.

2. Emplace in woods/trees: I like to put my guns some 10-15 meters back from the treeline.

3. Mass your fires on one target, unless you have a 70% kill probabilty, use multiple guns/target: section & battery fire.

4. When taking fire, have the crew hide & remain hidden, The OpFor may be fooled into thinking they've knocked out the gun and direct their attention elsewhere, leaving your gun to kill again. I've found all of these tactics work. The above are all standard Soviet Army AT doctrine. a good scenario to experiment with is "Action at Manutchskaya", simply substitute on a 1 for 1 basis 76.2mm AT guns for all the T34s, maybe give the Germans another Tank company of Pz4s."

And on another forum:

"My own experiments vindicate the Soviet AT tactical doctrine:

1. Mass your fires, multiple guns/target,,,Ideally 3+ guns/target (The Soviets used up to 12 guns/target (here kitty, kitty).

2. Hold fire & hide with Cover arcs (Armor) until pH/pK => 50% (This depends on range, gun caliber, shot type, target armor, target aspect ratio, etc).

3. Deploy in woods, pine stands, only if necessary scattered trees - say 10 -15 meters in cover, rarely buildings.

4. Protect with infantry in hiding & using cover arcs to only attack OpFor units threatening the AT guns

5. A trick used by the Soviets that I've used to great effect is, when a battery is taking fire, everyone goes into hiding; then say 1 or 2 guns are knocked out...if the crews of the dead guns are still in command-control I have them run away in open view of the OpFor (they die) while holding fire & hiding the remaining guns. This generally fools my opponent into ignoring the position and I can strike again at an opportune moment.

An AT gun's main threat is high explosive, so go after the Pz4s 1st. They have relatively thin armor and a 75mm shell has a lot more explosive power than a 60mm shell...which brings us to Pz3s: they're tough little bastards - low profile, bolt on case hardened armor - much tougher than Pz4s; so go for flank or rear shots on Pz3s."

[Other Means]

Folbec - good read, thanks.

Alkiviadis

4. When taking fire, have the crew hide & remain hidden, The OpFor may be fooled into thinking they've knocked out the gun and direct their attention elsewhere, leaving your gun to kill again.

This might work against anyone who doesn't know the gun terrain bug in CM.

If you're attacking and wondering if a gun is knocked out, click the gun & check the terrain type under it. If this is blank, the gun is dead.

[Alkiviadis]

Originally posted by Other Means:

Folbec - good read, thanks.

Alkiviadis

4. When taking fire, have the crew hide & remain hidden, The OpFor may be fooled into thinking they've knocked out the gun and direct their attention elsewhere, leaving your gun to kill again.

This might work against anyone who doesn't know the gun terrain bug in CM.

If you're attacking and wondering if a gun is knocked out, click the gun & check the terrain type under it. If this is blank, the gun is dead.

Thanks, didn't know that

[Steiner14]

Originally posted by Alkiviadis:

4. When taking fire, have the crew hide & remain hidden, The OpFor may be fooled into thinking they've knocked out the gun and direct their attention elsewhere, leaving your gun to kill again. I've found all of these tactics work. The above are all standard Soviet Army AT doctrine."

But this only works, if the gun's position isn't more or less identified, which was usually the case.

Memories of the Tiger tank-commanders of schwere Panzerabteilungen state, that in most cases they saw, if the gun was knocked out (shield hit, gun showing into the air, ammo-exlosion).

Sadly most scenario timeframes are still way to short, to allow realistical tank maneuvering, with withdrawing, searching a better position, even some hundred meters away if there is the better terrain and pushing forward somewhere else, if a weak spot in the enemy lines was found.

The usual 30 minutes may be adequate for RedArmy rushes, where the own soldier's life had no worth, but for German and WAs attacks, the timeframes are IMO totally unrealistically and are nothing else than planned massacres with the target to pack the action into the smallest possible duration.

What indeed seems to be modelled quite good in CM, is the survival of AT-guns. Usually one, max. two shots of a Tiger were enough.

An AT gun's main threat is high explosive, so go after the Pz4s 1st. They have relatively thin armor and a 75mm shell has a lot more explosive power than a 60mm shell...which brings us to Pz3s: they're tough little bastards - low profile, bolt on case hardened armor - much tougher than Pz4s; so go for flank or rear shots on Pz3s."

Sure, but therefore Tigers usually lead the attack and PzIIIs keep the flies away (protection against inf.)...

[Alkiviadis]

Originally posted by Steiner14:

...Sure, but therefore Tigers usually lead the attack and PzIIIs keep the flies away (protection against inf.)...

Concur. I should have prefaced my comments by stating that they were in regard to "NON-Big-Cat" hunting. But I must say that my most satisfying kills have been point-blank flank/rear target aspect shots against Tiger 1s with 45mm/m42 pop-guns.

[Alkiviadis]

Originally posted by Steiner14:

...Sadly most scenario timeframes are still way to short, to allow realistical tank maneuvering, with withdrawing, searching a better position, even some hundred meters away if there is the better terrain and pushing forward somewhere else, if a weak spot in the enemy lines was found.

The usual 30 minutes may be adequate for RedArmy rushes, where the own soldier's life had no worth, but for German and WAs attacks, the timeframes are IMO totally unrealistically and are nothing else than planned massacres with the target to pack the action into the smallest possible duration.

...

Again, concur. I suggest you look at some of Runyon99's scenarios, they are very long because he feels the timeframe is generally too short as well. Also specifically the scenarios: "Born Again at Prokoroka", "KP Opening Moment" & "KP Tank Warning" (an op) are quite long with excellent maps. the former & Runyon99's are at "The Scenario Depot" the latter 2 at the "Boots & Tracks" site. Personally, if you are interested in a game email me a setup & you are on. I exclusively play The Commies & prefer scenarios/ops & EFOW...for me more of a challenge. Guten Jagt.

[Steiner14]

Alkiviadis,

thanks for the hint.

'Opening Moment' is excatly what i'm playing right now! But only by random, because my oponent suggested it and i have to say, i'm really impressed.

This is one of the battles that allows a realistical approach and, what i appreciate even more, because of it's size, it allows the useage of armor, with all the real possibilities from slow and careful to real Blitz.

The map's size is also how it much more often should be IMO.

That is excellent, that you exclusively play the Commies, because i play exclusively the Germans!

The rest via private mail, Towarisch!

ps: is your email correct? - i recieved an error-mail

[ December 26, 2004, 03:36 AM: Message edited by: Steiner14 ]

[Alkiviadis]

Originally posted by Steiner14:

Alkiviadis,

...ps: is your email correct? - i recieved an error-mail

It is listed correctly but here it is again: ....... I have occationally had problems recieving mail from overseas lately (heavy holiday traffic?), but keep trying. I just came across a huge monster op for CMAK, posted at The Proving Ground entitled "Pied Peiper" for CMAK - KG Peiper's final push in The Ardennes, you might want to check it out as well, I'm currently playing it with one of your countryman, naturally he is Peiper...lots of toys for both sides... :cool: Enjoy Kamerade

Yes, "Opening Moment" is outstanding, be careful with the ground conditions (wet)

[ December 26, 2004, 12:46 PM: Message edited by: Alkiviadis ]

[Steiner14]

Would you mind to remove the spoiler, because we play double-blind and my oponent is around here, too?

Yes ground conditions are tricky but i can't say anything, without announcing things to my oponent.

Feind hört mit!

I can only recommend to never post your email explicitly in a forum, if you don't want to be bombed with 200+ spam emails/per day!

At least use the word AT instead of the @.

Strange, the adress i have seems to be correct.

I immediately receive a following message:

This message was created automatically by mail delivery software.

A message that you sent could not be delivered to all of its recipients. The following address(es) failed:

chilson.polites AT verizon.net

retry time not reached for any host after a long failure period

Do you have another adress?

[Alkiviadis]

Originally posted by Steiner14:

...

This message was created automatically by mail delivery software.

A message that you sent could not be delivered to all of its recipients. The following address(es) failed:

chilson.polites AT verizon.net

retry time not reached for any host after a long failure period

Do you have another adress?

Negative on another address, suggest you keep trying, my ISP sucks, but I only have a choice of it and another which is worse. I note your profile doesn't include your email address so I can't send to you...sigh...perhaps trying periodically ( every few hours? once a day?) don't know why this is a problem, could be anything from incompetance on the part of my carrier, high Holiday email traffic to the paranoia of my county's Heimatsicherheitsdienst?

[Alkiviadis]

Originally posted by Steiner14:

...Strange, the adress i have seems to be correct.

I immediately receive a following message:

This message was created automatically by mail delivery software.

A message that you sent could not be delivered to all of its recipients. The following address(es) failed:

chilson.polites AT verizon.net

retry time not reached for any host after a long failure period

Do you have another adress?

Try ....

[ December 26, 2004, 02:34 PM: Message edited by: Alkiviadis ]

[Steiner14]

Excellent. Seems that adress works.