Possible bug for 1.03,or a request for CMAK or CMX2

[nevermind]

I do not know how many people use this comand this way,but i often(especially at the begining of a game,while advancing to contact)double click a platoon HQ and issue a move to contact & hide command.This of course issues the order to all units in c&c of the platoon HQ.

The problem that i have found is that while moving to contact,an element or squad in c&c of the platoon HQ will either spot an enemy unit,or come under fire from an enemy unit,and will then stop and hide.So,if this unit has made contact and is in c&c of the platoon HQ,why does the rest of the platoon continue moving,often times to the effect of also coming under fire.If the whole platoon is issued a move to contact,then why when contact is made by some part of that platoon doesnt the whole platoon stop?I would imagine that the squad that has spotted the enemy would yell to or give hand signals to their HQ telling him of what they have found.Or if a squad is fired on,the rest of the platoon would hear it,and see them hit the deck.

Am i wrong on how this feature is supposed to work?Am i using this command in the wrong way?Any ideas or opinions welcome.

If this isnt an outright bug,could it be added in CMAK or CMX2?

[ April 10, 2003, 06:43 PM: Message edited by: nevermind ]

[nevermind]

Originally posted by nevermind:

Am i wrong on how this feature is supposed to work?Am i using this command in the wrong way?Any ideas or opinions welcome.

This is open to anyone.Please,if you have an opinion,lets hear it,or if im not making any sense let me know and i'll try and be more clear as to what i mean.Maybe i am the only one that uses this feature this way,if so i would like to know.

Thank You!

[tabpub]

Just because you give a "group" command to several units doesn't mean that they will all react when one of the units "see" the enemy. Each unit will react individually to your orders, based on their own instructions. For example, 2 squads have MTC orders. One with no Covered arc and the other with a 100m semi circle. The one with no arc will react to anything it sees/hears/feels, while the other will not stop unless the enemy is in the arc or shot at. And even when shot at, it may not stop.

The reason the "group" doesn't stop is that it is only 1 minute of time. By the time the "hand signals, whispering, etc," pass down the line, you are at the next order phase and can do your own thing. And, in general, that is how you would want your orders to work. Now if your follow up squads are getting too close to the point, then use the pause command to make them sit back. You will move slower, but safer...

[nevermind]

Your example is correct,however it doesnt completely apply to the potential bug.Now,let me tell you the exact example for why i posted this question here.I had a platoon,that was given a "group" MTC & hide command.They were in a relatively tight formation(all units were in c&c,the red line) when the squad on the far left came out of some woods and recieved fire.They did as instructed and hit the ground and hid.Then,about 10-15 seconds later,the squad in the middle,and the platoon HQ that was behind them also walked right out into the open and was shot at.This all happened in a radius of around 10m.I had sound contacts,so you cant tell me that a squad and a platoon HQ that were no more than 15-20m away from a squad under fire,simply wouldnt notice and continue walking into the line of fire.The experience level of the units in question were vets and crack.

Now,you tell me,in real life,would something like this happen?Again,based on your example,i could see why some of the squads wouldnt stop if a squad spotted an enemy unit and took cover.But when one of your squads comes under fire and the others dont notice until they are also fired on,well that just isnt right.This has to either be a bug or game limitaions.

[ April 11, 2003, 03:15 AM: Message edited by: nevermind ]

[tabpub]

think of it as limitations then. Just like any other game, each unit does not have its own little AI. It performs what it is told to do. Just like when one tank goes up to a crest, sees a bigger one and reverses on its own...it doesn't yell at the one next to it what is up, and the other one goes up the crest to see for itself. The prime limitation here is the fact that you had your guys jammed together in a situation of your own making and wanted the AI to get you out of it....don't work that way..now in the future, if they add things like SOP's and stuff like that, you may be able to tell a Platoon CO "MTC and if contacted, stop entire platoon". Something like that may be in the future, but not in this engine.

[nevermind]

Actually,the prime limitation was/is the games limitations.I had no choice but have them bunched up,as i was trying to make use of the very limited cover available,without alot of tedious micromanagement.I do appreciate you making it sound like it was my incompetence at fault here.I'll keep this in mind next time when asking for opinions.

[Cpt. Cook]

Try to think of it in a "real life" way. You are for example moving a thirty man platoon, giving them strict orders from their C.O., which are interpreted by the Lieut. A squad encounters, say, machine gun fire. Do you think the whole platoon is going to lock up at that point? Most would continue to advance until they had some idea of what was going on. Even a platoon dispersed over, say, 30 meters may have some communication problems under fire. Or one squad may continue to advance with another under fire to suppress.

It seems like you are asking to be too much of a god. The best part of this game if you ask me are when things get a bit beyond your control. That seems to me to be a better simulation of real combat.

[nevermind]

You've got to be kidding me,right?In a "real life" way,does it sound right for squad after squad followed by the platoon HQ to ignorantly walk out into fire?

Yes,if a squad gets fired on,the rest of the platoon is going to hold up until they can determine where it is coming from.They are not going to walk,like cows to the slaughter,one after another out into the open to get shot at.Especially when a squad right in front of the platoon HQ goes out and gets shot up.Does it trully make sense for the platoon HQ to do the same?How about a third squad,or a support unit?When does it stop,does the company HQ have to come down and walk out there at get shot at,then the battalion HQ all the way up to hitler or stalin themselves?

Seriously guys,this is a bug or a game limitation.If it is indeed a limitation,that is why this is also a request thread.What im asking about/for here, is a realistic,real life reaction,that should and will hopefully be fixed or added to a future version of CM.

[Eric Alkema]

On the other hand, if you are moving your platoon through the woods and the lead squad encounters bad guys, you want the remainder of the platoon to keep advancing until they can help out rather than stopping and letting the lead squad get chewed.

[nevermind]

Well,one of the following must be taking place here:

1)I did a very poor job of describing the exact situation in question.

2)All of you(whom i once thought to be very smart people)are very lacking in common sense.

How does "lets also walk out into the open and get shot" equal "the rest of the platoon advancing to help out"?You people arent being realistic here,why does an individual tank have TacAI and can overide your orders(or think on its own),but a platoon moving to contact,with a lead sqaud out front,is incapable of preventing itself from suicide.Why,when the lead element leaves the edge of woods and comes under fire,cant it relay the alert that there is enemy armor ahead,platoon stop,dont go out into the open to die?Why cant the platoon have TacAI for the same reason a tank has it,self preservation?

Why isnt this obviously clear to you people?

You can set up a test to see what i mean.Have a platoon move to contact from an area of no possible LOS,to lets say a hilltop with open ground that some enemy tanks have LOS to.Have your platoon situated where the squads are in single file,and issue the move to contact order to the entire group.You will see the first squad reach the top of the hill,see the tanks and stop.Do the others stop?No,each squad,along with the HQ will all walk out into clear sight of the tanks,which have now started firing.This is wrong and stupid.Heck,sometimes you can even hear the squad call out that they've spotted a tank,yet the others dont believe them i guess,and must see for themselves.

[EDIT to add]

The same principle should apply to a platoon of tanks that are in c&c of their platoon HQ,and have radios.These are collectives,that are functioning as a group,or a platoon.If one tank reaches the top of the hill,and sees 15 KTs looking back at it,and it knows the other units in its platoon are also going over the hill,he would get on the radio and tell them not to as he slams it into reverse.This shouldnt be foolproof of course,radios can stop working,maybe in a state of alert he forgets to warn his comrades,etc.

There should be group orders that can be given that would funtion this way.

[ April 12, 2003, 11:57 PM: Message edited by: nevermind ]

[billcarey]

As far as I can reckon, the question you're asking is, "Why isn't there a platoon level Tac AI?" which is a fair question. I suspect there are three reasons why a platoon level AI is absent:

1. As Eric pointed out so sagely, it would be very difficult to program a Tac AI at the platoon level that worked well in all situations. There is already a fair amount of moaning about the squad level Tac AI, and it only has to manage one unit, not seven or eight.

2. Determining to what extent platoon level co-ordination occurred in the various armies would be difficult. The program would have to represent differences in platoon level command quality much more than it does now. How would this AI function if the platoon leader were incapacitated? Conscript? Killed?

3. If the AI managed control of platoon sized elements, that would fundamentally shift the scale of the game to platoon scale from squad scale, which I'm not sure BFC wants to do. Your request would also remove the player from the game even more than presently, which would surely annoy as many users as it would please.

It is something to think about with the (possible?) advent of SOPs in CMX2. Should the player be able to designate SOPs at the platoon level and higher or just the squad level?

My thoughts.

-b.