How to make atr/anti-tank gun aim for weakness area?

[Snow Leopard]

How can we make crew of ATR and light anti-tank gun aim for track of medium/heavy tank if they knew they can not stop front heavy armor? Is CM coded to make ATR smart enough to try aim at tank's track or just luck shot or result come out of "rolling dices"?

[ February 14, 2004, 11:57 AM: Message edited by: Snow Leopard ]

[Krazy Canuck]

Originally posted by Snow Leopard:

How can we make crew of ATR and light anti-tank gun aim for track of medium/heavy tank if they knew they can not stop front heavy armor? Is CM coded to make ATR smart enough to try aim at tank's track or just luck shot or result come out of "rolling dices"?

You cannot target specific areas of tanks, humans etc......what you do, is pray a lot .

KC

[Abteilung]

It seems to me that more skilled/experienced crews are more likely to know about and target weak points wrt their weapon. Then again this is just my perception and not fact in any way.

It also depends upon the shot that they have and dispersion of the weapon. The crew may well be aiming for the weakspot, but just can't hit it due to their weapon system and angles/LOS issues.

[xerxes]

I've never tested it but it sure seems that if you're firing at the front you don't have much chance of a track hit. Seems like you need a side shot.

[Abteilung]

Xerxes: The frontal and rear arc present the most visible track area. The side will only present decent track area at certain angles. The front is usually the best wrt visible track surface due in part to vertical step abilities requisite for most tanks/afv's.

[tar]

OK, while it is technically true that you get more area for the track itself from the front/rear, a side shot exposes a lot of other, vulnerable unarmored stuff like road wheels, bogies, suspension, etc. Hitting those should also cause mobility problems as well. I'm actually a bit surprised that there aren't nearly as many mobility kills in CM as I might otherwise expect, especially when shooting from the side.

[JasonC]

You just need to use industrial quantities of ammo. On average you will get a track hit about 1/12 hits, and a gun hit about half as often again. So, if 2 light AA guns or 4 ATRs fire off their entire ammo loads - 200-300 shots - you expect tens of track hits and on the order of ten gun hits.

Most of these will do nothing even though they hit the right location. That is a "behind armor effect" limitation, where bigger caliber helps in absolute terms. E.g. 76mm AP is more likely to cause track damage than an ATR is. Neither penetrates e.g. a Tiger at range, but the former is much more likely to damage one.

With the little weapons, the key is to live long enough to get off all the shots. That way perhaps 10% of the track and gun hits pay off, and you still wind up wrecking a vehicle and hurting another, perhaps more, for only ~50 points invested. They stop light armor too, without exposing more valuable heavy ATGs or AFVs.

You can throw in a sniper to such an "annoyance detail" for a few more points, and maybe get a tank commander or two over a whole fight. Light AA and snipers also pin infantry in the open quite well.

So how do you live long enough to fire all the shots? Know the sighting range to your weapon and open fire well beyond it. Fire at long range every turn. When enemies get close enough to turn a sound contact into a full ID at a known location, cease fire.

For an ATR in woods or pines, you can typically keep firing down to 200m with impunity, after that it is getting risky and at 100m they will see you for sure. A bit farther for light AA (250-300m). More like 500m for light ATGs (37mm, 45mm).

With ATRs you can then sneak backwards to break LOS, and relocate elsewhere. With things like light AA or small ATGs, you just have to hold your fire until they are out of the area. If they come past you, sometimes the light ATGs can get side or rear shots where actual penetration is possible. Even ATRs get that sometimes.

But be warned, just because the kill chance says "low" doesn't mean you will get one. Behind armor effect tends to be very limited with these light calibers, so it takes many hits to destroy a vehicle even when you can penetrate. And they turn to face you rapidly, and can take you out in turn, if they are close enough to ID you.

Don't expect annoyance detail items to hold off tanks, to protect an area. They are a suppliment, not an AT defense on their own. They can deter an enemy from sitting continually in the open in locations with wide LOS, though, which is a useful thing in its own right.

[Snow Leopard]

Thank you JasonC and other members for reply my question. I will keep ATR on field and give order to attack specific target. Out of curious, how will I spot enemy tank platoon C/O's tank?

[Krazy Canuck]

Originally posted by Snow Leopard:

Thank you JasonC and other members for reply my question. I will keep ATR on field and give order to attack specific target. Out of curious, how will I spot enemy tank platoon C/O's tank?

Once again, sorry no can do.

But if your playing a human opponent who plays as I do, watch for the tank in a group that is lagging behind.

KC

[Orange]

I'm playing a PBEM game and I had a Sherman Jumbo who spotted and targeted a 75mm AT gun. His facing was perpendicular to the AT gun (ie, flank exposed). I immediately ordered the Jumbo to turn and face the AT gun since his frontal armor made it very unlikely to get ko'd. Well, for some strange reason the Jumbo didn't turn his facing. The two of them traded shots for about 30 seconds or so and finally the AT gun scored a hit on my Jumbo in the most vulnerable place, the lower hull. Man was I pissed.

I suppose it's possible that I didn't order the tank to turn it's facing but I'm almost positive that I did. The battle is going well for me regardless but I'd love to have that Jumbo right now, cranking some HE rounds into the village.

[Shosties]

John Ketter posted a link to this site in the CMBB forum and it's an interesting read.

VULNERABILITY OF THE PZ. KPFW. VI

A tank is such a complicated weapon, with its many movable parts and its elaborate mechanism, that it is particularly valuable to know its points of greatest vulnerability. Recently the Soviet Artillery Journal published a number of practical suggestions, based on extensive combat experience, regarding the vulnerability of the Tiger.

All weapons now used for destroying German tanks — antitank guns and rifles, caliber .50 heavy machine guns, antitank grenades, and Molotov cocktails — are effective against the Pz. Kpfw. VI.

1. Suspension System. — The mobility of tanks depends upon the proper functioning of the suspension parts: the sprocket (small driving wheel), the idler (small wheel in the rear), the wheels, and the tracks. All these parts are vulnerable to shells of all calibers. The sprocket is especially vulnerable.

Fire armor-piercing shells and high-explosive shells at the sprocket, idler, and tracks.

Fire at the wheels with high-explosive shells. Use antitank grenades, antitank mines, and movable antitank mines against the suspension parts. Attach three or four mines to a board. Place the board wherever tanks are expected to pass. Camouflage the board and yourself. As a tank passes by, pull the board in the proper direction and place it under the track of the tank.

Sprocket and idler present themselves from the side.

[Shosties]

DESTROY FASCIST TANKS WITH THE ANTITANK RIFLE!

[antawar]

excellent site !!!!