Webs Posted May 30, 2003 Share Posted May 30, 2003 A very odd occurence in a game I played recently. I had the Germans routed and was surrounding a 75mm PaK 40 with Canadians and halftracks. A PIAT took a shot at the gun but landed short. This was immediately followed by a burst from a vanilla M3 halftrack - just a .30 and a .50 there. Well, wouldn;t you know it, but the halftrack knocked out the gun. Knocked it out. The gun wasn't abandoned, it was knocked out. Other than a one in a million shot that would pierce the barrel of the cannon with a .50-cal bullet, I'm at a loss to figure out how that happened. Any ideas? Has anyone else knocked out a big gun with machine gun fire? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted May 30, 2003 Share Posted May 30, 2003 sights, traversing gears, breech handle, tyres, elevating gears, handles, ... ? There are many fragile bits on a gun, especially when half-inch slugs of metal are flying around. edit to add: IIRC, a gun is classed as knocked out if all the crew are killed before abandoning the gun. With that many units targetting it, killing the entire crew was probably pretty feasible. [ May 29, 2003, 08:47 PM: Message edited by: JonS ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaylord Focker Posted May 30, 2003 Share Posted May 30, 2003 Perhaps it shot out the tires of the Pak causeing it to spin out or somefink? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaylord Focker Posted May 30, 2003 Share Posted May 30, 2003 JonS, do you think that the Germans should have had a seatbelt law for Pak40's back then? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lcm1947 Posted May 30, 2003 Share Posted May 30, 2003 Well I have knocked out many guns in the past but never really paid attention wheather they were knocked out, knocked out or just abandoned. I do agree that with lead bricks ( .50 cal. bullets ) flying all around that they could cause all sort of damage to the gun. I'll be watching this in the future though just to see. Interesting point however Webs. That .50 Cal. was one hell of a gun in sprite of how it's portrayed in CMBO. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvio Manuel Posted May 30, 2003 Share Posted May 30, 2003 IIRC I had my German 105mm Howitzer KO'd from American MG fire at about 3-400m, and it was the first burst of MG fire after I fired maybe 1-2 shots w/ the howitzer... bummer. They went from OK to routed from 1 shot. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webs Posted May 30, 2003 Author Share Posted May 30, 2003 The crew hadn't been eliminated, as they fled like a Benny Hill conga line across the open terrain after the gun was hit. The gun was facing the halftrack, more or less - any damage would have had to have been caused either outside or through the gunshield - how thick was that? It was steel, if I recall correctly. I should point out that the range was obscenely low, like 50m. It's amazing what you can do with a halftrack after you completely demoralize your opponent's troops. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beta1 Posted May 30, 2003 Share Posted May 30, 2003 At 50m a .50 will do a lot of damage. I seem to remember you can penetrate most light armor with a .50 at much longer ranges than 50m so gunshield probably wont be too much problem at that distance 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted May 30, 2003 Share Posted May 30, 2003 The gunshields were really designed to keep out ordinary rifle ammo, IIRC. Also, the German ATGs up to the PAK 40 are quite low-slung, with a small shield that can not really protect the crew by itself. I find the incident related here entirely unsurprising BTW. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dandelion Posted May 30, 2003 Share Posted May 30, 2003 If I am not mistaken the PaK 40 uses a double (spaced) 5mm gunshield. And as far as I know a 50 calibre could by 1944 penetrate up to 25 millimeters under the most advantageous conditions (range, material and angle). Thus it ought to have the capacity to inflict very serious damage on a PaK 40 ta a range of 50 meters. It is in fact amazing what people can do with halftracks in CMBO even against a morally intact foe. Firing a 50 calibre from an old hardmount on a low capacity suspension vehicle moving in terrain is simply fiction, as anybody knows who has ever tried to hit anything firing from even a modern high capacity suspension MCV moving in terrain, using modern softmounts or handheld light automatics. Cheerio Dandelion 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Chapuis Posted June 3, 2003 Share Posted June 3, 2003 It is in fact amazing what people can do with halftracks in CMBO even against a morally intact foe. Firing a 50 calibre from an old hardmount on a low capacity suspension vehicle moving in terrain is simply fiction, as anybody knows who has ever tried to hit anything firing from even a modern high capacity suspension MCV moving in terrain, using modern softmounts or handheld light automatics.Well you must have never seen Black Hawk Down. Those guys were crack shots with their mg's while racing through town in their Hummers. And what about all those old cowboy movies? If John Wayne can hit an ingin' with a colt revolver while galloping on a horse, a .50 cal on a halftrack should be cake. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dandelion Posted June 3, 2003 Share Posted June 3, 2003 Actually I saw that movie and laughed my way through most of it. It was a little like reading the escape part of "Bravo Two Zero". Highly entertaining fiction. I'll never know why the public needs this portrayed as documentary. Cheerio Dandelion 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fortinbras Posted June 3, 2003 Share Posted June 3, 2003 Just two things... Cpl Dodge, the Humvee mounts a 7.62, not a .50 cal. There is a huge difference. They would have mounted the .50 if they could have. Dandelion... what movie did you laugh your way through? I have several friends who were in Mogadishu that day and they said the biggest differences between the movie and reality was that the streets in Mogadishu were much narrower and there were a lot more dead bodies than in the movie. As for firing wildly, it didn't happen that day. Probably the single most incredible thing that day was the fire discipline of the troops involved. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dandelion Posted June 3, 2003 Share Posted June 3, 2003 Sure, whatever you say. I'll stop laughing right now. You had better keep an eye on your veteran friends there tho. Before you know it they'll be off with your money and your wife. You might also want to make it a rule not to buy anything they try to sell to you. Loved the music in Black Hawk Down, bought the CD. Lots of great tracks. So I can't say I regret renting it, all in all. Cheer up Dandelion Once of BA02 "lucky battalon", Tuzla, Bosnia. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fortinbras Posted June 4, 2003 Share Posted June 4, 2003 Dandelion, I don't get it... every post I've ever seen from you is well thought out and reasoned, so I'm having trouble understanding your take on Black Hawk Down. Of course it's a movie, but before you give me some nostalgic crap about Cross of Iron or Stalingrad, what is your beef with BHD in terms of realism? Does it down play the politics? Yes! Does it down play the tactical blunders made that day? A bit. Does it over play the rift between some of the Delta vs. Batt boys personalities? Yes. It's a movie! But in terms of the fighthing, the movie does a pretty damn good job of showing the basic fire discipline that happened that day on the ground. Had there been indiscriminate spraying of bullets on the ground, they would have been out of 5.56 in the first three hours. As for your reference about serving in Bosnia, is that a sign of insecurity? Never seen it there before? Big deal. I've been to Bosnia twice! Woo Hoo! SO WHAT!? Instead of talking about my money and my wife, why don't you tell me what you're issue with the movie or the mission is/was? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fortinbras Posted June 4, 2003 Share Posted June 4, 2003 But Dandy, let me tell you what I really think... Here is why we, Americans that is, want it as a documentary... it's because, unlike your country, we are not in the habit of losing or taking loss lightly. Nor are we in the habit of worrying about whether everyone else agrees with us or not when we KNOW we are doing is the right thing. Therefore, when we set out to feed a nation, then have a Commander in Chief change the mission but reduce the force package, and wind up with 18 dead, we don't like it, and sometime we need to be reminded of what happens when we don't fully commit to something. Maybe if the "Lucky Battalion" and her EU allies would have committed to the Balkans 10 years ago, the United States wouldn't still have troops there. But don't worry, we'll pick up Europe's slack, we always do. Finally, as a former soldier, I laughed a lot too. There were clearly points that were humurous (e.g., making fun of CPT Steele, who was an ass). However, I am curiouse to know what parts you laughed at? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamingknives Posted June 4, 2003 Share Posted June 4, 2003 I was sure that I'd read commentaries from soldiers in mogadishu indicating theat they had .50 cals on Humvees, and I'm certain that they can be mounted as such. It amused me in BHD that they'd be firing at all and sundry with SAW and M16, run out of ammo, draw a sidearms and be making a hit with each shot. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dandelion Posted June 4, 2003 Share Posted June 4, 2003 Fortinbras Right. I suppose I should write something. Not sure what though. If you feel BHD is a realistic portrayal of "that day" I have no grievances. Can't say I recall expressing any either. Nor do I recall my expressing any opinion on the various policies of US administrations. Nor any on the performance of US troops, in the Mog or elsewhere. Nor did I mention - or plan to mention - Stalingrad, Cross of Iron, the policies in the Balkan crisis, US sensitivity to world opinion versus German or European such, US citizens convictions of their administration being right or wrong in past or present policies, US citizen sentiment on the US C-in-C in the Mog, Europe's slack and so on. I fear you might be confusing me with someone else, in which case this someone is still waiting for your opinion on all these matters. I have no issues with the movie. I find it hilarious. I also like Donald Duck. Doesn't mean I believe there are talking ducks. Technically the movie is a work of art of course, the atmos is fantastic, we see some highly skilled cameramen at work, the colours are great and the music is super. I do not merge nor confuse my individual identity with that of any nation, country, government or ethnic group. I'm plainly and simply me. True, there are millions just like me, billions if you look rear into history, but I am only me, elected by nobody, representing noone. So the patriot bile and ethnic slur just leaves me in want of understanding. You'll have to adress me personally in order to effectively express your inflamed sense of rejection in insulting terms. BA02 was in fact committed to the Balkans almost 10 years ago by now. Time flies, does it not. Having served two tours there, I suppose you already knew that and made a typo. Cheerio Dandelion 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Last Hussar Posted June 6, 2003 Share Posted June 6, 2003 Think I really must stick up for dandelion here. For a 'free' press US media appears very one sided to those of us in Europe. Hollywood isnt going to produce anything that shows the US military in a bad light. Mogadishu was a screw up, born of that 'white man' arragance we in the west have about the 3rd world. The US wins wars by having the largest most technological army in the world- in the WW2 they simply outproduced the Germans, plus the Germans were led by a mad man. If you are going to sneer at the military of other countries then I suggest you don't do it near any British soldiers- you may find yourself in for a rude awakening. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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