Red Army Infantry Tactics..

[imported_John_M]

I'm new to this forum, despite being a rabid CMBB player for a bit over a year now. I'd like to enquire about the appropriate tactics for the Soviet player if the scenario/operation in question is a purely infantry engagement.

Namely how does one employ their rifle platoon when facing a defending German force of approximately equal strength? Lately I've been concentrating all my forces on a single extreme flank. I'm generally able to achieve a limited degree of sucess: roughly 2:1 casualty ratio in my favor. Yet I can't help but wonder whether or not there's something I could be doing differently. Perhaps some veteran Red Army players could enlighten me as to precisely the optimum method of infantry dueling in this instance. It would be swell if I could accomplish my objectives without incuring excess casualties. Of course that might simply be impossible with this king of army. I would greatly appreciate anyone's contributions.

[The_Enigma]

I believe if you do a search of the CMBB forum, you will find several posts from Jason C which covers this area

[JasonC]

Um, one rifle platoon?

You don't attack an enemy rifle platoon in good cover over open ground with one friendly rifle platoon. Just as you don't drive tanks broadside past know ATG positions with their turret pointed the other way and the commander buttoned.

A single squad or MG, you can attack with one rifle platoon. A single enemy platoon, you can attack with a company, or with an FO and a platoon, or with a heavy weapons section and a platoon (though 2 is better).

Attacks require odds.

Be much more specific if you expect any real feedback or advice.

[imported_John_M]

JasonC

Thanks very much for the reply. I have 2 Maxim teams and a 152mm Howitzer FO in my force(Guards 44 Company). However the Germans also have 2 MG teams and an Arty Spotter of their own(Grenadier 44 Company). I do have "odds" in the sense that I'm concentating the entirity of my company on the extemity of their thinnly spread defenses. I'm also not attacking (entirely) across open ground either, in that they're using large wooded copses as cover for their (the Guards Company's) advance. Basically I was just curious if there was any feasible means of accomplishing such an objective with these forces. That is to say, can I do it without very many casualties? Thanx a lot for your feedback.

[Sigrun]

General rule of thumb: attackers need at least 3-to-1 advantage to have an attack succeed.

Plenty of good commanders have confounded those odds (either way), but in general...

[JasonC]

Um. I said a lot more detail, that was a tiny bit more detail, and hardly sufficient.

A single platoon position you can clearly attack with a company, which is what you say you have.

A single platoon position in woods you can plaster with 152mm and mop up with a company column. Or you might wind up playing "artillery tag", with your leading mop up platoon hit in turn by his, etc.

You've said nothing about - what terrain the enemy is on, what LOS is like, how you know the enemy force, what the scenario type is, whether there are any objectives involved, etc etc.

Post a screenshot of an overhead view with overlays scribbled on it with Paint, if you want something serious.

[imported_John_M]

Jason,

The scenario here is actually the first in a five part operation that I recently thought up. I intentionally set up each scenario with both sides being aproximately equal. The idea here was to test whether of not I could actually pull off some kind of tactical victory without having like, two guys left alive at the end of the op.

The forces in question consist of:

Red Army Guards Rifle Company '44

Company HQ (Veteran)

1 Platoon: HQ (Veteran), 3 Rifle Squads (Veteran)

2 Platoon: HQ (Veteran), 3 Rifle Squads (Regular)

3 Platoon: HQ (Veteran), 4 Rifle Squads (Regular)

Ind. Maxim MG Team (Regular)

Ind. Maxim MG Team (Regular)

Spotter 152mm Gun-Howitzer (Radio)-(Regular)

Wermacht Grenadier Company '44

Company HQ (Veteran)

1 Platoon: HQ (Veteran), 3 Grenadier Squads (Veteran)

2 Platoon: HQ (Veteran), 3 Heavy SMG Squads (Regular)

3 Platoon: HQ (Veteran), 3 Heavy SMG Squads (Regular)

Ind. MG42 Heavy MG Team (Regular)

Ind. MG42 Heavy MG Team (Regular)

Spotter 105mm (Radio)-(regular)

The Ground is DRY.

The temperature is COLD.

Weather patterns are set at mixed.

All forces listed here are fit and at full strength. Bear in mind that this is merely the the first in a series of five battles. I've scheduled more troops, arty, armor, and (possibly) air support in later engagements. I do however consider this to be the most interesting, and challenging scenario of the pack.

The operation is an Allied Advance, containing no specific objectives other than advancing to the end of the map while killing/routing as many facisti as possible, while of course trying to keep my Ivans as non-bullet ridden as possible.

Incidentally I'm usually able to shell his line with planned prep. fire from my 152's at the outset with no counterbattery response. As long as I keep my forces well concealed during their adavance up to his positions (through those woods I mentioned), the arty threat is pretty much nil even as I'm annihilating his flank security. After this the German squads that break cover to relocate in response to my penetration are typically cut down by my Guardsmen, now situated in excellent cover (woods or large craters).

Sorry but I'm not sure how to post a screenshot. If you or one of these other fine gentlemen could enlighten me, I'll certainly do just that. I don't require a doctoral thesis on WWII Red Army tactics, just general observations, opinions, and criticisms from superior CM players to a humble newbie. This might be my favorite wargame ever, but I still obviously have a long ways to go. Thanx again!

[JasonC]

It's just hopeless.

[RCHRD]

Geez, could you be a little more obnoxious. I don't think he gets it. You sound like the wizard in the Wizard of Oz.

[JasonC]

Remember the saints, remember their patience, once more into the breech dear friends or close it up with our English dead.

OK, see, there are MGs and there are mortars. Together they constitute the ordinary infantry heavy weapons of a typical company, any side any time period. The MGs are meant to prevent enemy infantry from closing, without giving away your own infantry positions or risking many men. The mortars are their specific counter, meant to pin or break them without ever being exposed to their fire, from full defilade.

If you leave both out you simplify tactics, but that can be OK if the terrain is particularly dense - heavy woods or built up town, e.g. If you leave out one but not the other... Well, take the case you have. You have MGs, which given fire lanes across open ground patches between woods, can cut up easy infantry movement. And when that happens, the side it happens to can ... Well, suck it up and plunge across the gaps, hoping they are short and there is plenty of time to rally. Because the mortars that are meant to deal with the MGs were left back in Moscow.

OK next, you are fighting the AI. The AI is quite dumb, there are all sorts of "stupid AI tricks" (like stupid pet tricks) you might try. For instance, you gave them a squad type for 2/3rds of their infantry that has about 3 minutes of ammo, and the AI has no fire discipline. So you can have you main body sit in some woods, and sauntered out into the open with one unit at a time for oh about 4 minutes, then you need to deal with the MGs and one platoon of rifles somewhere.

Moral, don't give the AI units with 3 minutes of ammo. Actually all the types that mix an LMG with an otherwise pure SMG squad are broken in ammo model terms, because when the squad fires at 250m the SMGs contribute no firepower but the whole squad still runs out of ammo. Instead use a pure SMG type and add LMGs as separate teams - or pick a mixed type with 1 LMG and 2-4 rifles, others SMG etc, that has livable ammo.

Then you expect things to be balanced because you both have an FO. But the AI doesn't know how to use artillery. If it sees something at set up it will fire the whole module at it - which is dumb for a human but one of the few ways the AI will get anything at all out of its shells. The reason is it basically just doesn't know where to put the FO, it treats it like another unit. On a map with terrain that will mean no LOS much of the time, and bunched up with other targets much of the rest of the time, and moving around a lot, etc.

When it does fire e.g. at a gun or what have you, everyone else can run clear because the aim point will not move, and anything directly under can be written off because the whole module will fall right there and right now.

Then there is the little matter that it is a 105 and yours is a 152, and all truly big caliber arty is quite overmodeled and therefore extra powerful etc. The Russian is cheaper because it is less reactive, long time to shoot. If you know where the enemy sets up you can get around that of course with map fire.

Then both sides have 2 MGs but the German MGs are about twice as strong. S'OK, with the other things you are doing it is the only edge they have, though not one that will matter much in heavily wooded terrain.

Then I asked for actual terrain in detail and instead got detail in the form of the temperature.

Typically one has some actual tactical task to perform, and there is a role of picking weapons out of the typical national force mixes and long suits and adapting them to the task at hand. That is the first shaping factor, and here it doesn't exist. Instead it is just an AI stomp, OK.

Next comes the terrain analysis to figure out what routes are vulnerable, what you can isolate or pick off, where it is easy to get your stronger forces (whether those are infantry or heavy weapons or armor), where there is good firepower integration for you and poor for him. Since the terrain is not forthcoming, that's out, can't even talk about it, nothing to see or say.

Next comes making an actual plan of action that uses the selected national long suit force and the analysed terrain possibilities. It is a sequence of combined arms match ups sought out actively, interspersed with the movements needed to bring them about, and any key "freeing" actions needed to make those movements possible or easier in turn, etc. It is a puzzle unlocked from last step to first - I want a 2 platoon on 1 low morale platoon firefight in the interior of woods A, to get that I need prep and overwatch stuff at B first and infantry snaking through C to reach its jump off points at D. The barrage has to be timed for that, and I need to move out from E in this march order.

That is out, no terrain, etc.

Nearest approach to it is a simple run down of assets. 1 big mega FO from a map fire shoot, decent infantry, piddling weapons. Ok.

Worst platoon HQ takes 1 squad and the MGs and screens one side of the field, a third to half of it. Squad is split, with half squads leading the MGs to their firing positions if those aren't in the set up zone. After that the squad can reform and act as a 3rd. The goal is wide net of eyes and fire lanes that cut one part of the field from another, with diagonal slices that do front-to-back slicing best, side to side slices that go clear to the back of the map next best, partial side to side slices least useful type. No held enemy ground is to be taken on that side of the field. Move to contact drills to 200-300m from enemy, MGs set up, contain.

Next some big body of cover is selected as a likely enemy held position. The FO is put on it with the fire mission delayed to minute 7 to 10 or so, depending on how fast you think you can move (given cover, slopes, LOS for enemy ranged weapons etc).

The company HQ takes the squads from the worst one and has the center of the main body column. The other two platoons have point and reserve at front and tail of it, respectively. One axis. The point platoon should have some command rating and +1 morale. The best platoon goes in reserve at the tail.

Point platoon beelines for the FO's targeted area. One squad split to scout, rest of the platoon trailing in "blob" (2 by 2). Behind it the company HQ platoon then the reserve, both 2 by 2. Move to contact up front until see something or take fire. Then advance - occasional sneaks - move deep in cover to save fatigue.

Point platoon finds things with blown up point, fixes them with platoon main body. Rest of the company column then comes on line whichever area looks good, or maneuvers around etc. But tactically, still in mutual support distance.

Bull through any early light fire. Everyone on shortened arcs, not meant to fire unless they step on something. Goal is to make it to 150m shy of the barrage while it is landing. Go stationary, wait for it to finish, tail of column closing up if you timed it best. Then main body (all but point) mans the whole front of the jump-off body of cover, stationary there and ready to shoot. Point platoon enters cover just smashed by the barrage, on "advance".

If there are shooters left, whole platoons back at the overwatch line take them down. Point continues if there aren't many, retreats if there are a ton. Main body not hurt either way. Once point is in the enemy body of cover it spreads by short advance, wanting 2 units hitting any enemy found. Cross the other platoons gradually as room becomes available inside the cover you are taking, but also watch for spotting rounds, and if you see one stop all crossing attempts and get out of there.

If the point is fought out or low on ammo, rotate the point role to the reserve platoon. Proceed to the next body of cover if you think you have the "wind" for it and the enemy seems weak enough. Otherwise, call the bit you took and the enemies you murdered a victory and call it a day.

Does that help? No way I can tell, with what I've been told.

(But what I expect is a post about how he knows everything and everthing works beautifully and isn't it a great idea and aren't I smart? But there is that principle of charity, and one isn't supposed to say what one expects).

[imported_John_M]

JasonC,

Many thanks for the excellent response. I apologize for the severely limited amount of info given. Your patience was indeed saintlike. Your knowledge of small unit infantry tactics is formidable indeed.

Actually your response was everything I wanted and then some. I realize now that the order of my advance and the spacing of my squads has been completely innapropriate. I also think that I need to move my 152mm spotter further towards the German line in order to get a more accurate LOS on their forward positions. My first attempts utilized good bases of fire (from my MG teams and other 2 platoons), but I tended to sit back and plug away at the defending squads entirely too long. While this approach did tend to pin and eventually panic the defending squad, it also soaked up my ammo VERY quickly and oftentimes led to my forward squads incurring needless loses. Hopefully this new approach will alow me to overcome the initial contacts more quickly and efficiently, alowing me to better establish a footing to deal with the rest of their company.

I do have some other random questions for you if you wouldn't mind.

Could you explain how effective CAS is in dealing with infantry as opposed to vehicles? By CAS I mean fighter-bombers like the Il-2 or Yak-9, not Tac bombers like the Pe-2.

How does the Soviet SG-43 Medium MG perform compared to the DP or Maxim MGs? Just how rare would they be in late war Rifle Companys?

Do you know of any specific actions by NKVD troops? I don't mean 'Blocking Detachments' or SMERSH activity, but the actual RDs. I so, could you relate the composition of the units involved?

Thanks again for your time and patience.

[JasonC]

On the 152 FO, the delay will be quite long, though late in the war in gets a bit better it is true. The usual thing is to order the shoot on turn 1, "map fire", and then delay it using QQQ. You don't need LOS, it will always be accurate. It just also can't be changed, and you have to guess where the enemy will be.

Reactive, you can get a lot more fire out of a 152 module, though you have to wait for it to arrive. One trick there is that you can call the mission and get the timer starting down, before you have LOS. You need LOS the moment the first spotting round is fired, a minute before the shoot itself. To the aim point. Once you have the time quite low, small adjusts (under 100m) have some delay, but livable.

If you use it that way, you can milk the FO for several separate flights of shells. A minute and a half will typically pin everything in the same woods, with the single best airburst doing the bulk of the damage.

Now to your other questions. Air is quite effective in CM, against all targets. The strafing is particularly so. But the preferred targets are vehicles and then guns. Infantry in good cover is rarely targeted. MG strafing will panic or break the unit hit, but lasting KOs are limited. Bombs on the other hand can wipe out a whole platoon if they land just right, but usually miss completely, or just "wing" the nearest unit, breaking and half-squading it.

But artillery is a better use of the points against infantry.

The SG-43 is basically the same fp as a Maxim, it just gets somewhat lower ammo. The big advantage is medium speed, which lets it keep up with ordinary infantry. ("Move" for medium speed is as good as move for fast - they just don't run well). A pair each of SG-43s and 50mm mortars, with a sniper or radio FO or both, makes a fast heavy weapons group. Maxim-82mm ones are quite slow in comparison.

DPs on the other hand lack the hitting power to function as an actual MG. They are scouts and listening posts. They can harass at range - over 250m - and can expect to remain sound contacts that way. But the fire is so light even men moving in the open will typically just accelerate to run when shot at. Sometimes you will make somebody crawl or get 1-2 guys. But they can't deny ground, so they don't function as a real MG.

They weren't all that rare late war, Guards in particular, but Maxims remained by far the most common MG throughout. They were also under TOE most of the time in both types. In the real deal, the DP was a significantly better weapon than it is in CM. Even those were under TOE though, with most units having over allotments of SMGs and under allotments of all kinds of full MGs. (You can tell by statistics staff studies give for whole armies etc).

As for NKVD, they mostly had guard, internal security - partisan (partisans were a serious issue in the Baltic states once cleared, and to a lesser extent the Ukraine), and border missions. Mostly they pulled guard duty at depots, rail lines, prisoner cages, etc. Had to be on hand if the local party types wanted goons for enlistment drives or what have you, too.

They were underequipped and crappy compared to full combat formations, in no way an elite. More like German security divisions. Mech forces were the Russian elite arm. As for composition, standard RDs with the usual heavy weapons at battalion and below, but light in everything serious, higher, or attached. Just having Maxims and 82mm mortars was sufficient to outgun partisans etc.

[imported_John_M]

JasonC,

How dare you slander our gallant People's Commisariat of Internal Affairs! This defeatist attitude will not be tolerated comrade! Your facisist leaning views of our security forces must be liqidated. Please report to your nearest factory commitee or party headquarters for 'proletarian discipline'.

Sorry, just figured I'd give you a little Bolshevik humor for your efforts. Perhaps the only thing that lags farther behind my CM skills are my jokes! Oh well, "Progress not Perfection" right?

In terms of sheer mayhem caused, my all time favorite Soviet "small" arm has to be the Dshk38 Heavy MG. I consider this monster the most magnificent in the entire RKKA WWII inventory. Although in CMBB it just doesn't seem (to me anyways) to be paridigm of death-dealing viciousnesss that it was in real life. Is the gun undermodeled in the game? Also, could I (realistically) incude it within a company heavy weapons detail? If not, what command level exactly would it be subordinated to? Was this weapon primarily utilized in an AA, Anti-Vehicle, or Anti-Personel capacity?

Also please inform me of the campaigns undertaken by Soviet Airborne and Naval Infantry/Marine forces later in the war. I've really been aching to create scenarios/ops involving these unit types that take place within the 1944/45 time frame. I would be most appreciative if you give me some suggestions.

What are YOUR favorite weapons, troop types, and eras to wargame with?

Once more thanks for your input!

[JasonC]

Next you will be sharing your lampshade jokes and your slave plantation jokes and your Pol Pot jokes. The one about the guy with glasses. Utterly tasteless, makes me want to throw up.

[imported_John_M]

Um...well in that case I'm sorry if I offended you. If anything it was meant to ridicule the dogmatic (not to mention homicidal) outlook of such people. A simple "Hey dude that's not very funny" would have sufficed. I've read posts from plenty of others on this forum lampooning the Soviets in this manner, and none of those have incurred such reactions. As lame as my sense of humor happens to be, I deeply resent the implication that I derive some sort of levity from things like the Holocaust, slavery, and/or genocide. I assure you that is most certainly NOT the case. In the future please be upfront (aka MATURE) and ask me about my motives before assuming things about my character which are patently false. Please also answer my earlier questions or tell me you're not going to answer them. Either way give me the courtesy of a response.

[Hensworth]

I think you caught Jason in a less than gracious mood as he has just stepped into a rather nasty pile of Nazi fanboy poo in another thread.

I have to say my mood sinks a notch or two everytime we uncover one of those idiots in here as well.

[imported_John_M]

Yeah I just got through reading that myself. I'm a little sick right now. Gotta love girlfriends with colds.

Despite Jason's reaction to my post, I take my (nonexistant) hat off to you guys for the way you dealt with those goons. I suppose I picked a rather poor time to make such a crack. It's principled, intelligent folks like yourselves that keep me posting here. I always despised the ridiculous, Cold War pro-Nazi bias that seems to reside in Wargaming communities and in the games themselves. At least that's always the impression I've walked away with. Everytime I start to think it's just me, one of those ass-clowns opens their piehole.