Use of the 50mm mortar post 1942 in German service

[li]

i Have read of them being used in Bocage fighting.

When both sides were dug in in the bocage, most light arty was ineffective except for a direct hit IN a hole. In which case, hole occupants were blown to bits or badly wounded.

So the 50mm and even rifle grenades could do so real damage since the forces were only seperated by 100-200 meters or even less.

As the war went on and german platoons shrunk in size, the 50mm would have been a manpower burden and was probably held at a higher echelon.

[Michael Dorosh]

li, that's a good point about the platoons shrinking in size.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Holien:

Mike thanks for posting that photo and raising the questions you have.

Clearly by discussing this in an adult fashion and seeking to gain a better understanding through discussion with others is a mature way to act.

Like KR I too wonder how old those kids were and by the fact that it shows kids would back up the view that it was not a weapon in that period of the war being issued to regular units.

Of course during the later part of the war, I am sure all units in the German army made use of what men (and boys) they could enlist. I guess in those days Boys had to learn to be men quicker than boys now a days.

Cheers

H

The entire response here was enlightening, Holien. I thought it very interesting that many focussed on the human element - the age of the boys. That didn't come up in the "other" thread. Once again, this board amazes me with its maturity and ability to discuss intelligently and with genuine curiousity - not just historical, but of the human condition at large.

Not that I think anyone on a wargaming forum can really refer to action figure collectors as "juvenile"; the claim is equally true or false in both cases, depending on the individual. We've seen CMers here who focus on the death and destruction, and others who focus on the ability to teach about history. Any hobby in which the Second World War features, be it vehicle collecting, re-enacting, gaming, TV and film buffs - will all have that dichotomy. Is it marked by intelligence, wealth, social status, or just merely the interests of the individual? All of the above, likely.

I just found it astonishing to see a collective body who has devoted themselves to a hobby of collecting miniature historical uniforms, and yet were angered at the thought of having a deeper discussion of the very subject they devoted themselves and their dollars (as a fellow devotee, I can attest to that) to. If anyone goes back, check out Nighthawk's posts. He's a walking encyclopedia of knowledge, much like our own JasonC. I don't have much interest in WW II GIs, so I skim or ignore his posts; There has been the odd reference I could make in way of reply to him, but mostly it was - and I admit it - right over my head. But always well stated and the product of thought, research and effort. For that, others there grew virulent in their condemnation of him. Too weird.

I thought Chet's quote was amazingly contradictory. In the same breath as he bemoaned the disappearance of bona fide historical writers at his forum such as Ron Volstad or Jon Gawne, he condemns another writer (yours truly) for attempting to discuss history. How very odd. The most telling comment was his plea for "legitimacy." I think that was the biggest problem.

I think any CM player has wrestled with the problem of "legitimacy". We wouldn't exactly put "plays wargames" on a resume. But I think we are far more secure in ourselves than our friends here. I would guess their self-conscious approach to their hobby fuelled their inability to either deal with the subject in a deeper more thoughtful manner, and probably caused the violent reaction when the conversation was "taken outside." One can see why, given the comments made about the hobby. They obviously have a lot of preconceptions to battle.

Which is why their forum is not so much about the hobby as it is a support group, where these grown men can reassure themselves they aren't merely being juvenile. One man came on at Christmastime last year to talk about the fact his wife was leaving him, due mainly to the attention (and money) he paid to his hobby.

The community there pulled together and wished him luck, reminded him of what was important, and hopefully the dude pulled his marriage together.

We've joked here about divorce induced by CM and wonder if there haven't been a few cases where it was true.

I wonder if there aren't deeper things that can be said, linking these "juvenile" pastimes and our ability to relate to the real world - but then again, who is to judge what is juvenile or not? Gambling is far more destructive, overall, than other hobbies and is not generally regarded as "juvenile".

I should think that legitimacy - and the lessened need for "support groups" - would come from greater self confidence. I honestly believe that this self-confidence would come with not poo-poohing actual historical research and discussion, or those that genuinely enjoy such, and perhaps making an honest effort to understand the life and times that these little 12 inch statuettes represent. To their credit, some individuals do just that. The others remain secluded and, I suppose, demonized, but I think that is perhaps of their own making. with the capacity to legitimize themselves, or empower themselves through research, they wouldn't need external factors to legitimize them.

How many people have posted here to say "wow, I never knew much about WW II, but playing CM, and most of all, talking to you guys has taught me a lot." Kind of takes it out of the "juvenile" realm, doesn't it.

But that's their problem, I suppose, and only one man's opinion. It takes all kinds, of course, which is what makes a free society great.

Anyway, Holien, I wanted to thank you for your support and comments in this. I regret to inform you I have no AAR for our last ROW scenario. It was a hard fought battle - your AAR was quite well done and should suffice to tell the tale.

[ March 27, 2003, 10:06 PM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[Cpl Carrot]

Well Dorosh I went looking for a group hug smiley and I did find one.

:grouphug:

Unfortunatly this board does not seem to support it

Cpl Carrot

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Cpl Carrot:

Well Dorosh I went looking for a group hug smiley and I did find one.

:grouphug:

Unfortunatly this board does not seem to support it

Cpl Carrot

We should really have a rematch someday; our ROW scenario was a nailbiter.

[usmcchet92_96]

I thought Chet's quote was amazingly contradictory. In the same breath as he bemoaned the disappearance of bona fide historical writers at his forum such as Ron Volstad or Jon Gawne, he condemns another writer (yours truly) for attempting to discuss history. How very odd. The most telling comment was his plea for "legitimacy." I think that was the biggest problem.

So you wish to continue?

I never questioned your knowledge Mike, but I question your delivery of your knowlege. Like it or not most of the members there think you are rude and insted of letting it go you always had to get the last word in. Mike I really don't have a issue with you, but I think you have no people skills.

[ March 27, 2003, 10:32 PM: Message edited by: usmcchet92_96 ]

[Cpl Carrot]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

We should really have a rematch someday; our ROW scenario was a nailbiter.

Sure thing. Drop me a line when ever you are up to it.

Robert

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by usmcchet92_96:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> I thought Chet's quote was amazingly contradictory. In the same breath as he bemoaned the disappearance of bona fide historical writers at his forum such as Ron Volstad or Jon Gawne, he condemns another writer (yours truly) for attempting to discuss history. How very odd. The most telling comment was his plea for "legitimacy." I think that was the biggest problem.

So you wish to continue?

I never questioned your knowledge Mike, but I question your delivery of your knowlege. Like it or not most of the members there think you are rude and insted of letting it go you always had to get the last word in. Mike I really don't have a issue with you, but I think you have no people skills. </font>

[Andreas]

The use of outdated equipment in the training and home formations was very common in the German army. There are documented instances of Stug IIID (shor 75 howitzer) being used in combat in 1945, when they were no longer in the line formations, for about 2-3 years.

www.lexikonderwehrmacht.de has info on weapon stocks in 1945 (usually last avilable data) - unfortunately it is in German.

[li]

http://www.inert-ord.net/russ02i/mort_at/R5082.html

Good pics show the comparison of lt and med mortars.

German types have very small fuzes apparently. The crudeness of these ammo types is apparent. US 60mm is really a much larger weapon than other 50mm types.

The link on that same page provides weight details. At 14.5 kg (32#) this is a load to hump. About the same as a LMG I suppose. The ammo is bulkier and I think if I had my choice, give me a LMG.