Knaust Posted August 28, 2003 Share Posted August 28, 2003 "My greatest hope is that we encounter a favorable tactical situation, but if we don't and worst comes to worst, I want each one of us to do his utmost to destroy our enemies. If there is only one plane left to make a final run-in, I want that man to go in and get a hit. May God be with us all. Good luck, happy landings, and give 'em hell!" - John C. Waldron, Pre-battle message June 3, 1942, At Midway, the pilots of Lt Cmdr John C. Waldron's Torpedo Squadron 8 flew on to attack in the certain knowledge that they were beyond return range. Attacking unescorted against heavy A.A. fire and fighters, they were all shot down. They have become justly famous for their bravery in pressing the attack. But they deserve to be equally famous for their bravery just in flying the mission. Even had they survived the attack they could not have returned to their carrier. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted August 28, 2003 Share Posted August 28, 2003 This topic properly belongs in the General Forum. I don't think it is quite appropriate to call them Kamikazes. The line between taking a grave risk and deliberately taking off firmly resolved to crash your plane and yourself against the enemy may be a fine one, but it nevertheless exists. I believe you mean to do honor to the men in the torpedo planes, and I respect you for that. But I think you need to find another way to express it. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted August 28, 2003 Share Posted August 28, 2003 29 of the 30 men in the squadron were killed stone cold dead; Ensign George Gay survived the battle and was lucky enough to be rescued by a US float plane a couple days after being shot down. Not sure what this post has to do with anything, though. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Shaw Posted August 28, 2003 Share Posted August 28, 2003 The "popular" definition of Kamikazi implies a deliberate self-sacrifical attack with the express aim and purpose of delivering the attack WITH YOUR BODY and intending to die as a result of the attack! That Torpedo Eight was brave is beyond doubt, but remember that Torpedo Six lost all but five aircraft and Torpedo Three all but TWO! There but for the grace of God, etc. The TBD was an obsolescent aircraft already being replaced by the Avenger, it was dead meat on the table to a Zeke. Furthermore the lack of fighter cover wasn't deliberate but an accident, much as the later dive bombing attacks were so supremely successful due the accidental timing of their attack. The fact that Torpedo Eight went in without any cover is highly commendable ... and resulted in a number of Navy Crosses, but it's not suicidal and the intent wasn't to drive the aircraft into the Japanese carriers but to drop their fish and get the hell out if they could. Finally, I'd really like to see a source for the range issue. Were the aircraft LAUNCHED with the sure and certain knowledge that they couldn't get back? My reading has indicated that this was NOT the case. Now the actual flighttimes may have led to that result, and pressing home the attack in the face of dwindling fuel is certainly courageous, but I've seen nothing to indicate that the mission was INTENDED as a one way flight. In fact the dive bombers, IIRC, were also critically low on fuel when they finally found the Japanese fleet and dropped their bombs. In short, I don't think the term "Kamikazi" should apply to these brave Naval Aviators. Joe 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SgtMuhammed Posted August 28, 2003 Share Posted August 28, 2003 If you want to get real technical the first Kamikaze was a Russian. On September 8, 1914 Captain Nesteroff scored the first air-to-air kill against an Austrian aircraft flown by one Baron Rosenthal. Nesteroff downed Rosenthal by crashing his plane into his enemy. Rosenthal became the first man to die in air-to-air combat and Nesteroff the second. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted August 28, 2003 Share Posted August 28, 2003 Originally posted by sgtgoody (esq): If you want to get real technical the first Kamikaze was a Russian. ... Well, if you want to really get technical, the first Kamikaze wasn't even human ... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SgtMuhammed Posted August 28, 2003 Share Posted August 28, 2003 Ok, you got me. But we were discussing pilots rather than the weather. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted August 29, 2003 Share Posted August 29, 2003 Originally posted by JonS: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by sgtgoody (esq): If you want to get real technical the first Kamikaze was a Russian. ... Well, if you want to really get technical, the first Kamikaze wasn't even human ... </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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