Soviet AT guns

[Nero's Cat]

Can I ask what other people's thoughts are on the best Soviet AT gun in 1944 - 1945? There seems to be quite a bit of choice!

Regards

[JasonC]

The best Russian ATG for the whole war is without a doubt the 57mm ATG. It has sufficient penetrating power to get through Tiger sides, or the front hull under about 400 meters. It will penetrate the Panther turret front at a similar range. And all plain vanilla panzers, including the StuGs which give others so much trouble, fall easily. Not too expensive, either, if rariety is off.

The next best is the 85mm AA, which is neutered in 1943 by poor ammo, but becomes effective in 1944. The AP performance is not appreciably better than the 57mm, though behind armor effect is a bit better and the HE is much more powerful. But it is also expensive, immobile, and vulnerable, compared to the 57mm.

A distant third is the ZIS-3 76mm gun, the standard field piece. It's AP performance is poor, and it needs flank shots to deal with most armor. But with a flank, it can kill anything but the Tigers and Elephants, including Panthers. The cost is very low and the HE performance adequate. It is also mobile enough, towable by jeep or universal carrier.

The last that I find useful is the 76mm mountain gun, as a field gun rather than an ATG. It is dirt cheap at 30 points as regulars, mobile, has an enourmous HE load all of it useful against infantry. And it typically comes with half a dozen AP that are more useful against plain panzers from the side, than even the 45mm ATGs. Use them like the Germans use infantry guns, not as a PAK. Having a couple around also lets you deal with halftracks and armored cars without revealing a full sized weapon, or losing more than 30 points to the retaliation.

Well, actually there is one other useful Russian gun, the 37mm AA. Accurate, a light armor killer, good anti-infantry firepower and excellent ammo load. Also very good at is main role, air defense. Isn't very stealthy when firing and the AP performance against real armor is nothing terribly useful, but it is an all around useful piece.

The 45mm ATGs are not useful, despite their low price. The APCR penetration numbers get decent in the late war, for the L66 model, but they depend too much on short range and low angle. At 500m and 30 degrees, they are seriously undermodeled. The behind armor effect also tends to be poor - I've penetrated a Brummbar (flank)with one 3 times in a row and had the beast just turn and blow the gun away. Yes a cross fire of them is better AP defense than nothing, and adequate against e.g. Panzer IVs. But for the cost you are better off with the guns above.

As for the other varieties of long 76mm, the USV and such, I don't find them useful compared to the ZIS-3. The cost and performance are so close, there is really nothing to choose one over the other on that score. But the ZIS-3 is significantly more mobile - the others need a truck (poor off road) or full halftrack (expensive and 8mm armor is vulnerable to German MGs) to tow them, because they are transport class 7 rather than 6.

And the infantry guns, while historically used in the role mentioned for mountain guns above, are in CM inferior to the mountain guns in every important respect. They have the high HE load, but lack even the flank-shot AP ability of the mountain gun.

The 25mm AA, while stealthy when firing, simply lacks the fp to hurt pretty much anything. The AP won't even bother HTs facing it, the infantry firepower is worse than an MG, and German fighters readily strafe repeatedly despite having one of them firing. Take a 37mm instead.

One other very useful Russian AP device in the early rather than late war, though, is the ampulet. It is seriously overmodeled, getting basically 60mm penetration and good hit chances out to 200-300 yards. You can consider them bazookas.

[Nero's Cat]

Thanks Jason - quite astounding knowledge, as usual

Much appreciated

[Sigrun]

Originally posted by Nero's Cat:

Thanks Jason - quite astounding knowledge, as usual

Much appreciated

The chap's quite incredible. :thumbsup:

[coe]

say any info about the german 75mm L/100

also would you take the 57mm soviet AT or the german 75mm AT and the other question - what was the secret to the 57mm Soviet AT being so good compared to the 50mm PAK? (7 mm??)

Conan

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by coe:

say any info about the german 75mm L/100

There probably isn't much to say, as the gun was as far as I know never built even in prototype form. I believe the only mention of it occurs in connection with the proposed armament of the Panther Ausf F/Panther II.

Von Senger und Etterlin has this to say (p. 64 of the Galahad Books edition):

"Official documents dating from 1944 talk of a Pz Kw V 7.5cm KwK L/100. Apparently it was intended to lengthen the 7.5cm tank gun L/70 to L/100, whose performance figures must then have reached their absolute maximum. From the metallurgical and constructional points of view all possibilities had by now been exhausted with this weapon."

Originally posted by coe:

also would you take the 57mm soviet AT or the german 75mm AT and the other question - what was the secret to the 57mm Soviet AT being so good compared to the 50mm PAK? (7 mm??)

Calibre doesn't help penetration, calibre (broadly) hinders penetration. Mass (well, areal density) and striking velocity (if you stay the right side of the shatter limit) help. The Soviet projectile is about a kilogram more massive, and leaves the muzzle about 150 m/sec faster. It's absolutely no surprise that it penetrates better.

All the best,

John.

[BigDork]

Originally posted by Nero's Cat:

Can I ask what other people's thoughts are on the best Soviet AT gun in 1944 - 1945? There seems to be quite a bit of choice!

Regards

This wouldn't have to do with our PBEM would it?