Bidermann's Gun?

[Cessna]

There is a scenario in the game (on the bonus CD and in Scenario Depot) that depicts a small action that is described in Gottlob Bidermann's book, "In Deadly Combat."

Two 37mm Paks and a platoon of infantry defend a villiage against several T-34s.

I've played the scenario a few times - always as the Germans - and I can NOT seem to win.

What's the secret? I've tried all sorts of defenses, and always seem to stop a few T-34s - only to get slaughtered in response...

[JasonC]

Unless you provide the actual name of the scenario and/or a live link to it, you can't expect much in response.

[juan_gigante]

I know the scenario you mean. I can't remember the name, but it's hard. In fact, the scenario is easier than Bidermann had it in real life, because he was up against KVs. The scenario designer decided to switch them to T-34s because with CM's penetration system, 37mm guns are essentially unable to penetrate KV armor, no matter the range, and only single-digit percentages at the side. Honestly, I wish I could help you, but I can't.

Found the scenario. It's from the Small Battles series, so it's named Small Battles - Bidermann's Gun.

[Mr Ed]

That is a awesome scenario! I won it 1st time, but that was luck

[JasonC]

So where is it? The depot is down.

[Ardem]

This is the thing I don't understand the KV-1 had mixed survival rate against the 37mm, In bidermann book he take three on and kills them and then awared the iron cross a little later.

But in Raus Book, the KV-1 suffers no penetration only scratches on a KV-1 and even a brand new 50mm made no impact it took an 88mm to kill it.

Is it Possible bidermman was lying? or why the difference.

[Cessna]

Originally posted by JasonC:

Unless you provide the actual name of the scenario and/or a live link to it, you can't expect much in response.

Oops, sorry.

"Bidermann's Gun." Like the thread title.

[juan_gigante]

It is very possible that Bidermann did not actually "knock out" the KVs, or at least all of them. Perhaps he merely damaged the gun and/or immoblized the tank, and the crew felt they should abandon it. I remember in at least one of the KV kills he mentions aiming right down the KV's barrel and pretty much shredding that. Plus, if he were up against an inexperienced/otherwise-bad tank crew, I can see how they might abandon after one penetration, regardless of the effects.

And Jason, I sent you an email with it. I'll be interested to see your take on what I feel is a fairly difficult scenario.

[JasonC]

I have it now, thanks. I've looked at the set up but haven't played it yet.

On KV stories, I think mis-IDs were quite common in 1941, much like western allied men on the line later thought every German tank was a Tiger...

[Panzer_M]

well a green crew, being shelled from a crack AT Gun may panic, even if it's not going through the 3.7cm round is louder than a rifle round on impacting the armour.

IIRC 37mm rounds made for busting concert bunkers worked on thicker armoured tanks.

[juan_gigante]

And they were using Tungsten, so maybe...

[JasonC]

OK, I've now played it. I easily won a minor victory, but I have numerous problems with the scenario. They are spoiler stuff, so don't read this if you haven't played it and intend to.

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I readily got turret pens, full from T and one partial from plain AP. I also managed one hull pen from a flank with T. Total penetrations achieved by the 37mm guns - 7, 6 full and 1 partial. Net effect of those 7 pens - not a darn thing. This isn't a test of skill, it is a test of behind armor effect rolls, and not a very interesting one at that, because the rolls have to be spectacular to do anything.

I killed 2 T-34s with infantry. One by a grenade bundle from a hiding full squad in the objective building, when an AI driven T-34 parked right outside. The other, late, by 2 close assault (plain "grenade") throws from the "elite" Pz Jgr HQ. I had chances with him earlier but did not want to risk him getting killed, so I waited until close to the time limit.

The 75mm dropped dozens of shells on top of 2 T-34s and did not do anything to them, naturally. They suppressed a few infantry and held them off for several minutes as a result. I note the LOS from the entry location of the FO barely reaches the near side of the crossroads, not nearly far enough for a proper aim point. Slow, in snow, with tanks about and walls in the way, he ain't moving. So I called the barrage instantly and it did whatever it did. I hate things like that, they are movie script stuff written by the scenario designer, instead of letting me decide anything.

The transport on the map is pointless. One kubelwagen if you want to make it possible to reposition a gun. Otherwise they are just fodder and it is best in point terms to just exit them on turn 2.

The LMG should be an HMG. LMGs are a joke in FP terms, all they help with is spotting, really. When the narrators describes a single MG as helping, it is undoubtedly an H not an L, in terms of how much ammo it threw etc. Understand, an LMG has such limited ammo the FP ratings are modeled based on very infrequent, short burst firing. The 3 times higher FP for the H is mostly just more time spent with the trigger down, made possible by many times the ammo supply.

As for the forces, the Russians have way, way too much infantry, and it is also too piecemeal. The actual incident described in the book is one platoon of T-34s (3) and almost certainly a single platoon of their tank riders. That is why HE from a couple 37mm plus an HMG were able to hold them off, after the tanks were taken out. Yes there was another T-34 platoon in the distance, but after other prey not part of the local fight.

If the Germans get the full platoon of infantry, then the Russians might get a second platoon of recon C along with 3 T-34s, but they certainly do not need the 11 squad, 6 HQ circus or 7 T-34s. There is no indication in the narrative they had either. A company of infantry like that, in terrain like this, should be able to smash the defense without a single tank. Only the AI fails to do so.

There is no reason to regard the T-34s "in place of" KVs as actually "in place of". The real tanks in the real deal were almost certainly T-34s. He calls them heavy tanks, but the Germans called KVs and T-34s heavy tanks in 1941. It is not a Russian internal use and deployment official designation, it is a German field soldiers comments. Anything that wasn't a thin tin can of the T-26 and BT variety, was "heavy", in 1941.

The models in the scenario are the early 45mm turret, and the 37mm get abundunt T ammo. As such, there is no difficulty whatever in getting repeated full penetrations. That isn't where the narrator was "lucky" compared to CM. It is the behind armor effect that makes the 37mm useless in CM. You need half a dozen penetrations to kill anything, on average. You will be lucky if you get 2 before a T-34 puts HE close enough to pin you for good.

Incidentally, in my fight I lost both 37s, the 50mm mortar, and about a dozen men. The Russians lost 2 T-34s and 43 men and the flag points were zero. It was easy enough to win on points simply by running out the clock without showing all the German infantry, so the AI wouldn't know what to shoot at.

But this is pure stupid AI trickery. A human would just level the place with 76mm HE direct and indirect, and then send in the infantry. German infantry AT would get zero kills, and it wouldn't take any longer than the AI spends futzing about. The 37mms might or might not get 1-2 T-34s from turret pens, depending entirely on random behind armor effect and not at all on player skills on either side.

As such the scenario left me distinctly unsatisfied. Perhaps others enjoy this sort of thing, more than I know. To me it was poorly scripted romanticism without any real world tactics, made winnable by the cluelessness of the machine, nothing else.