Soviet Early war tactics.

[Garand51]

Well I was playing a small scenerio where my armored cars and Bt-10's are line up in a coulmn (they cannot be moved.) they are facing getman column down the road. As soon as i finish deploying my troops and i click for the first turn...both cloumns are attacking each other. The germans have some early tank models like PSW's etc. Both columns fired on each other right away. In the first round 2 of my BT's where knocked out and no German armor was. I looked after the battle and both armored columns had roughly the same experience.....so what determines who loses tanks in that situation? (both where hull down)...and does anyone have any tips for using soviet trash cans (armor) early war? thanks

PS I NEVER EVER TRY TO DUEL WITH GERMAN ARMOR EARLY WAR.

[Cuirassier]

I think I know the scenario you are speaking of. Once I found out that both armored columns were padlocked within LOS of each other, I exited out. I hate scenarios where the scenario designer forces you into a situation without allowing the players to determine the outcome of the game.

German armor tends to slaughter Soviet early war armor for numerous reasons. First, most German vehicles have cupolas, while Soviet tanks do not. This enables the German vehicles to spot much better when buttoned.

German vehicles also have radios, which means all armor in a platoon will stay in command, even when buttoned. The Soviets do not have this luxury until much later.

Also, German armor generally has superior optics, which makes for faster ranging and superior accuracy when compared to Soviet armor. Also, early war Soviet AP ammo (eg the 45mm) is grossly undermodelled, why German AP ammo is not. Thus, Soviet shells often break up or have horrid behind armor effects on the rare occasions that they do penetrate armor plate.

Lastly, real German tanks (Pz. III, IV, etc) have five man crews, which means 3 men in the turret doing different jobs. The commander is looking for the enemy and directing the fight, while the gunner is focusing on hitting his target, and the loader is feeding the gun with the appropriate ammunition. In early war Soviet vehicles, the turret usually only has two men in it. This means there is an increased workload for the crew, which translates into longer reaction times.

As for tactics, the best is not to use early war Soviet light armor. Use KV's or T-34's. If you do not wish to cherry-pick like that, use towed 76.2mm longs, and use jeeps or trucks to quickly relocate them. The Soviets have excellent AT guns throughout the war, so you might as well make as much use of them as possible, instead of fighting German armor symmetrically with your own.

If you have to use Soviet light armor early war, try to keep it massed and only take on single targets. You have to realize that the poor penetrating power and behind armor effect of the undermodelled 45mm will require many shells to take out even a lightly armored target. OTOH, German AP rounds will slice through the 15mm plates on your tanks at any distance with ease. So you need great odds to win any engagement. Surprise is also useful.

I hope this helps.

[ April 27, 2007, 05:11 PM: Message edited by: Cuirassier ]

[Garand51]

Thanks man gonna use this. And it is the same scenerio you are talking about they are both columns are padlocked.

[JasonC]

Cuirassier covered most of it. The only other essential thing is to understand that the undermodeled early Russian 45mm is only going to be effective against German armor if it can somehow get in flank shots. Head on, they will bounce even from the front of Pz IIs, more often than not, and haven't got a prayer against a Pz 38 E model or better or an early StuG.

The only way to ensure flank shots is to get your tanks deployed in a wider arc, so a German tank facing one of them has to show a side to some other shooter. The difficulty is both "wings" of the crossfire have to still be alive. Best way to try to get that is to get behind cover, so the Germans don't have LOS at all, and only get any one at a time as they advance. Then shoot-and-scoot or fast move forward to firing position with the wing that has a side shot, and reverse further behind cover with the wing the German is facing.

Needless to say, this is essentially impossible in the immediate ambush situation the designer gives at the start, making him a useless control freak git. But if you insist on playing his lame scenario anyway, get your tanks behind cover ASAP and then maneuver as above.

In other scenarios, another good way to get flank shots to allow 45mm peashooters to work, is to have one of the wings be a towed gun rather than a tank - and hidden. The Germans are much more likely to show a flank to someone they don't know is there.

If you have any choice in the matter, though, don't take the early 45mms, they are grossly undermodeled compared to reality and not worth their prices. Long 76mm towed guns can kill things, T-34s and KVs rock in every way.

Other useful items are the 76mm mountain gun (better AP performance than a 45mm ATG with a similar price, and a lot better HE firepower) and the 37mm AA (extremely accurate, high rate of fire, kills things with flank shots and damages even without them, etc). And the ampulet, a cheap little "bazooka", in effect, that can kill most German early vehicles out to 200 yards.

[Garand51]

thanks for the help Jason, I have been trying ampulet's and they are very effective. Another thing I forget do late war soviets get bazooka's(Us provided) or RPG-1's like they did in World War 2 in real life? I dont know how affective a PTRD or PTRS would be in 1944....

[Bigduke6]

Nope, the Soviet infantry do not get bazookas in CM, nor do they get captured panzerfausts for that matter.

Soviet AT teams towards the end of the war get AT grenades most of the time, and they are deadly within 30 meters. But early-war all you get is sucky Molotovs.

Of course, the Germans have AT weapons built into their squads, so German infantry is more resilient on AT jobs, as there is a squad to kill as opposed to a little AT team.

If you want to be gamey buy a Sturmovik, and figure out a way to supress the German AAA (if he buys any.) A Sturmovik allowed to do its runs can kill off a platoon of panzers.

[Other Means]

AIUI late war Soviet Tank Hunter teams get a RPG about 2/3 of the time, giving them very good AT capacity.

JasonC did a test, it's in the archives somewhere.

Hopefully he'll be along soon to clarify.

Early war, you're SOL.

[JasonC]

Yes it is 2/3rds with RPG grenades, range 35 meters or so, from mid 1943 on. That is tank hunters only, though - regular infantry still just gets useless molotovs.

Early war you can use pioneer infantry. A company of those - 6 squads and 3 HQs - costs 187 as regulars and gets 12 demo charges, and can cover 300 yards of front with DC threat. (Put 2 squads 50 yards apart with an HQ between them. Repeat 3 times, covering areas that terrain does not). Foot flamethrower teams are another infantry AT possibility, with 45m range (but basically need to fire from cover, stationary). Hidden AT mines also work.

But you can also use the ampulets. I buy one per platoon position. Reaching out 200m you are much more likely to get shots than using weapons with ranges under 50m. Germans just won't come that close, not humans at least. The ampulets rock until German vehicles thicken up around the second half of 1942. After that they still can penetrate with flank shots, but aren't nearly as useful as they are earlier.