Baltic Gambit?

[John DiFool]

I have seen this attempted in several AARs that I

have seen lately (Allies trying to sink German

Navy in Baltic)...my question is: what exactly do

the Brits gain out of all this? (French too if

they join in) From what I have seen the Allies

end up with a bloodied navy, which because it

takes forever to rebuild is of little use against

a Sea Lion.

Plus the Germans fight on home ice..err ocean,

with possible help from land-based air. All this

just to sink 2 battlecruisers and a sub, which

are of little consequence to begin with. Wouldn't

you rather fight a Sea Lion with a fresh navy,

even if you then have to deal with the Scharnhorst

and Gniesenau as they support the landings?

Someone explain the logic behind all this. As a

decoy to help out France? Sure, for a turn or two

his air units bomb your ships, but that only

delays the inevitable in the land war. It just

seems like you are doing the Germans a big favor-

and later on all those ships you lost will be

missed if he decides to invest a little in a

submarine campaign.

:confused: :confused: :confused:

John DiFool

[kenfedoroff]

Originally posted by John DiFool:

I have seen this attempted in several AARs that I have seen lately (Allies trying to sink German Navy in Baltic)...my question is: what exactly do the Brits gain out of all this...?

Good question.. Are they trying to clear out the Baltic so the Soviets can send help to England in its darkest hour, if the Axis try Sea-Lion?

Ken

[Archibald]

I suffered a well executed Baltic Gambit at Rambo's hands. It's a good use of the French Navy, which is completely expendable. The French should be used for the initial attack on the Germans, with the Royal Navy finishing the Germans off and gaining valuable experience.

With the Baltic Fleet gone, Sea Lion is a much tougher proposition for the Axis, as they lose the ability to temporarily block RN access to the Channel from the North Sea. it also makes it easier for the Soviets to send swarms of transports later on to the aid of a beleagured Britain. If Germany goes for the Soviet Union instead, then the Soviet Baltic Fleet will survive and can be reinforced by the RN. This will greatly speed up the isolation and destruction of Finland, which can be a life saver to the Soviets during those desperate early months.

Pulling off the Baltic Gambit for the British requires a firm knowledge of the enemy air's location and probable strengths. If he's canny, like Rambo, he'll keep the RN just out of range.

As the Germans I'll kill any British fleets I can get, even if it means delaying France's fall by a turn. I weigh the probable sub-one hundred French income once Fall Gelb's underway against the loss of a 600 MMP battleship.

[ January 14, 2003, 11:41 PM: Message edited by: Archibald ]

[BriantheWise]

Actually, similar to Archibald said...

There are two occasions to use it, one good, one expedient.

Dutch Gambit: While of questionable value, and historicity, I do enjoy using this gambit once in a while. It flusters the Germans good. If played well (and I taught Rambo how to do it well, though he won't admit it, smile).

Suddenly the allies have two airs, two carriers, a bomber, and possibly even a french air to keep the German air force attrited during their attack on France. And very busy.

Introducing the French fleet to the Baltic, backed by a British fleet or two (out of range except for the kill), can be effective. The french are expendable (you can use other British fleets for shore bombardment all you like during this time - they have the air cover), and you can eliminate at least one of the fleets if the Germans are caught napping

(There is a counter to this, of course....There's always a counter)

Expedient: If the French are falling faster than you want, the Germans are effectively avoiding the coast, and you've decide not to place them all in the med to attack the Italians (something I used to do, but not as much anymore - it got too expected, kill them off on the Germans.

However, if this is the case, I would never bring the British ships with them, because if the French are falling too fast, then the British will desparately need all her navy.

The third reason of course is stems from the newbie players (no disrespect intended). They've got these beautiful toys doing nothing and want to get them into the action. This, of course is not a wise action.

Them's my thoughts.....

Brian

[jon_j_rambo]

You have 3-major-missions for the French. You can mix missions, time the missions, mix in British, etc.

1) Ram the Baltic

2) Ram the Italians

3) Blast the Shores/Port above LC

(minor: Hunt the Atlantic subs)

What's lame about the Allies in the Med. is their supply values suck. They fight terrible, no air-support, no HQ for air, can get trapped if the Axis get serious (put air on Sicily). The Italians will bang you up. I don't think the Italian navy is that big of a deal. It's tough to kill them all & air-power rules the sea later in the game anyhow.

**** What makes the naval game lame is the supply. The combat is all about the supply. There's no "real" skill/strategy picking targets. Find somebody about your size & RAM THE BASTARD. There's always going to be some surprise combat which you can't account for without air spotting. I hate how the software picks a stupid movement course. Try doing something cool around Scapa Flow or Sicily & you can get headcracked quickly. If the naval supply was well defined or more liberal, you could do cool stuff: Hide your navy in different places so you wouldn't have to worry about getting bad combat results. If you get an exchange in the worst case, it's worth the risk. The smart thing is to hang out in your supply areas and/or a port away from ground units.

It's all about risk/reward what strategy you use.

Early Allied strategies ranked by RISK:

1) LC-gambit (roll the dice)

2) Egyptian-gambit (hope no SeaLion)

3) Italian-gambit (declare on Italy, land ground)

4) Stuff France w/ British ground unit gambit (need a smart Dunkirk & time the fall)

5) Run away & stock some Free-French-gambit (gives France to Germany easily)

6) Sit on your British ass & build air w/ tech (long-term play)

7) Moderate play with Brits (give the Nazis want they want, but no extras.)

[ January 15, 2003, 12:42 AM: Message edited by: jon_j_rambo ]

[BriantheWise]

Rambo,

Your conclusion was a bit topic, relative to the baltic strategy, but, I'm curious, because all you mentioned was top risks, but not the potential, say odds for reward, and the Axis counter. For example:

Dutch Gambit: In the game I played you on Saturday (which you did win), I did the Dutch Gambit (and poorly), and though bloodied, you still took France. The risk was high for me, the reward turned out to be moderate. And then you, in my opinion (it worked, but barely), did a bad counter. You did Sea Lion. Suddenly all that readiness I had lost, I got right back. If I had been playing axis and finally gotten France, I would have essentially, sat on my butt, and built things, knowing that I had two whole years to build an empire, during which I could eunich Britain in the med at no cost. Think about it.

That's the counter to the Dutch gambit. Learn this from the Wise.

And so on.

Heuristic has improved on this, and it's scary, because it's a serious force to be reckoned with. And I have not yet seen the counter to it. Either or or - yes. I have a counter. Both. Not yet. I'm working on it.

The double gambit. The dutch gambit and declaring war on Italy with a landing at the lower peninsula, taking that city, whatever it's called. This creates havoc in the med, reduces Italy's MMP's to the 90's, and works to kill of the italian fleet.

I'm going to use this on Irish Guards when I play him as allies in the tournament.

And here is why. MMM...I think I will make this a thread, but there is an issue here....

Rambo, learn from the Wise

[kenfedoroff]

Arch, BtW, Rambo

Many thanks for sharing strategy/tips.

Sincerely,

Corporal Cannon Fodder

[Hueristic]

Originally posted by BriantheWise:

I'm going to use this on Irish Guards when I play him as allies in the tournament.

And here is why. MMM...I think I will make this a thread, but there is an issue here....

Rambo, learn from the Wise

Sounds to me like Brian is learning from the Wiser.

And there is no way u will win our game brian u are dead already and just havn't noticed yet.

[Kuniworth]

A baltic gambit combined with Huesterics genious Taranto move and the Low-country gambit ´can be a game killer.