JayJay_H Posted November 18, 2002 Share Posted November 18, 2002 Did it ever happen? Who knows the conditions making Turkey enter the war on Axis side Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hans-micael Posted November 18, 2002 Share Posted November 18, 2002 pure chance I guess - just like Spain - you will never know what did the trick. otherwise go to the campaign editor - but it will probably be game over for whichever side gets Turkey against them... In real life Turkey would never have sacrificed their freedom - like in the BIG 1 regards, Hans-Micae Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Potvin Posted November 18, 2002 Share Posted November 18, 2002 Originally posted by hans-micael: In real life Turkey would never have sacrificed their freedom - like in the BIG 1 regards, Hans-Micae? Do you mean like in WWI, when a) Turkey did not exist and when the Ottoman Empire (which included the area now known as Turkey) fought on the same side as Germany/Austria-Hungry? :confused: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayJay_H Posted November 18, 2002 Author Share Posted November 18, 2002 Originally posted by hans-micael: In real life Turkey would never have sacrificed their freedom - like in the BIG 1 In real life, with Germanys strong position in the black sea, Turkey allowed the german federalized residents the shipping lane through the dardanelles until 44'. Germany and Turkey had been comrades-in-arms in WW1, and Turkey inclined to join the Axis until the Crimea was lost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayJay_H Posted November 18, 2002 Author Share Posted November 18, 2002 Originally posted by hans-micael: pure chance I guess - just like Spain - you will never know what did the trick. Spain will join the Axis Powers when UK is off! Or at least, London had fallen [ November 18, 2002, 12:00 PM: Message edited by: JayJay_H ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pzgndr Posted November 18, 2002 Share Posted November 18, 2002 Hubert shared the following information which he intends to include in an updated manual: SPAIN - Hypothetical alliance with Axis possible if UK is near surrender and status of fascist minors: Hungary, Romania TURKEY - Hypothetical alliance with Axis possible if UK near surrender and Balkans/Greece under Axis control and favourable status with fascist minors: Romania, Hungary and Bulgaria "UK near surrender" probably means London has fallen and the British government has moved to Manchester. The rest is fairly clear but I assume a join percentage chance is also involved, so there's still a random element. This really isn't much different than what is already provided in the manual: "Expect to see countries such as Spain or Turkey, both with close ties to Germany, to join the Axis side if the UK is sufficiently knocked out of the war, or perhaps Hungary and Romania may not join the Axis Alliance if Germany attacks its fascist ally Spain." It's useful to know the major factors involved so you can make an informed strategic decision, without knowing exact details. The game needs to provide some surprises, yes? For Turkey, USSR near surrender and Axis conquests of Egypt/Iraq could be additional factors. That and other political tweaking may have to wait until SC2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted November 18, 2002 Share Posted November 18, 2002 I've found Spain enters when England's lost London and on the ropes. Turkey is less predicable -- sometimes she enters before Barbarossa, sometimes afterwards and often she doesn't enter at all. Usually, if she enters early and Germany adds a Turkish thrust it turns out being more than the USSR can handle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayJay_H Posted November 19, 2002 Author Share Posted November 19, 2002 Originally posted by Bill Macon: TURKEY - Hypothetical alliance with Axis possible if UK near surrender and Balkans/Greece under Axis control and favourable status with fascist minors: Romania, Hungary and Bulgaria.Aha, so one has to go for Greece and launch Sealion simultaneously?!! Gonna check it out [ November 19, 2002, 06:38 AM: Message edited by: JayJay_H ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayJay_H Posted November 19, 2002 Author Share Posted November 19, 2002 Originally posted by JerseyJohn: I've found Spain enters when England's lost London and on the ropes.Exactly Turkey is less predicable -- sometimes she enters before Barbarossa, sometimes afterwards and often she doesn't enter at all.I never had one single game where Turkey entered at all, even though UK was knocked out :mad: [ November 18, 2002, 11:03 PM: Message edited by: JayJay_H ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Billote Posted November 19, 2002 Share Posted November 19, 2002 I've never scene Turkey enter either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted November 19, 2002 Share Posted November 19, 2002 Interesting -- after a while I got tired of her joining the Axis because it made the war in Russia too easy. The proceedure I generally followed was remaining tacit in the Balkans till Yugo couped, then crushing it and letting Italy take Belgrade. When Hungary, Rumania and Bulgaria were in the Axis and Yugo conquered Italy would take Greece and, having already taken Vichy France, the Italians would increasy their fleet, then make a move on the Eastern Med, sinking the British squadron at Alexandria. They'd then load up, go to Syria, invade Iraq and Egypt (from east and west) and by then Turkey would nearly always enter the Axis. As was the case with Bill Macon I'd invariably have also taken London by then -- I'm a firm believer in getting Operation Sealion up and out as early as possible. As JayJay__H says, that might be the key, the Axis having both Greece and London. Also, if you invade Yugoslavia before she coups I've found neither the Balkan States nor Turkey come in. The Italian Mediteranean plan is illustrated and more detailed four or five Forum pages back in Zeres "The Second Roman Empire." In Cos, Turkey would never enter for the human Axis but nearly always for the AI Axis. I was amazed in this game to see it become Axis at all. [ November 19, 2002, 02:39 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Billote Posted November 19, 2002 Share Posted November 19, 2002 Poor Zeres, still in the click....What a political maverick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayJay_H Posted November 19, 2002 Author Share Posted November 19, 2002 Originally posted by JerseyJohn: They'd then load up, go to Syria, invade Iraq and Egypt (from east and west) and by then Turkey would nearly always enter the Axis.Yep, i conquered all that with my Jerries but Turkey still beeing neutral :eek: As was the case with Bill Macon I'd invariably have also taken London by then -- I'm a firm believer in getting Operation Sealion up and out as early as possible.Im not so set on Sealion, Germanys fleet aint prepared for that - also keeping the UK in means you get more units to destroy over the years - and a greater victory rating in the end! [ November 19, 2002, 06:50 AM: Message edited by: JayJay_H ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted November 19, 2002 Share Posted November 19, 2002 JayJay_H The key must be London --? Sorry Turkey never joined your Axis, if it's any consolation the country is more fun to conquer than it is to have for an ally. Though fairly large the Turkish army isn't much of an offensive threat and it has no navy. Hitler spent a lot of time trying to get them involved but they were still too stymied from WWI. Britain and France, aside from dismembering the Ottoman Empire actually attempted to parcel out Turkey itself but at the last minute the plan was scrapped. Greece still wanted the Dardenelles and the two countries fought a vicous war over them in the early '20s with Greece being badly mauled. Considering that, it's a bit humorous in many of these games where Greece and Turkey are linked in their Political interests (Balkan League, etc..) [ November 19, 2002, 09:40 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IrishGuards Posted November 20, 2002 Share Posted November 20, 2002 Spain will enter for Axis if the Uk attacks and takes tripoli on occasion, such as in early 1940 Only ever happened once that I remember in my games Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted November 20, 2002 Share Posted November 20, 2002 IrishGuards -- After reading all the different experiences we've had, I suspect there are various conditions that lead to the entry of Axis and Allied minor countries. I think an element of unpredictability is good for gameplay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I/O Error Posted November 20, 2002 Share Posted November 20, 2002 After reading the replies in this thread, I'm going to have to mess around some more. I've played dozens of games against the AI and less than a dozen against humans, and I've never seen Spain or Turkey enter the war. Hell, I never knew it was even possible! Shows what I know, LOL! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wachtmeister Posted November 20, 2002 Share Posted November 20, 2002 Recently played out a game that seemed to follow the "formula" ,noted above, for entry of Spain and Turkey. Attacked and conqured the UK, and Spain came on board after London fell. Also kept good relations with the Balkans (did not attack Yougoslavia until the Allied coup), and took Greece (although a little late, since the USSR declared war early - March '41). Still no help from the Turks. Incidently, I went through this approach three searate times to test various combinations of research investment - even this close to Thanksgiving - no Turkey. Like some others I have played at least 20 1939 campaigns and have never seen Turkey enter on the Axis side. Do you have to take Greece first? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted November 20, 2002 Share Posted November 20, 2002 -- Wachtmeister, Sorry you couldn't even get a Turkey for thanksgiving. It might just be a statistical quirk because I've played about the same number and have had Turkey enter at least three times. Twice I grew tired of waiting and had the -- by then --powerful Italians :eek: conquer the place. I'm starting another Axis game on pbem and one against the AI; if Turkey enters again I'll post it -- hopefully it will enter for someone else first -- maybe it's because I use the Italians to conquer the Med instead of the Germans? :confused: [ November 20, 2002, 11:36 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I/O Error Posted November 20, 2002 Share Posted November 20, 2002 Originally posted by JerseyJohn: -- Wachtmeister, Sorry you couldn't even get a Turkey for thanksgiving. *cue snare drum* Now cut that out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted November 20, 2002 Share Posted November 20, 2002 "Yes, it is about Wachtmeister and JerseyJohn and their simple minded puns! -- Also, it would be good if that ridiculous bird recieved a new name. Do we ask for too much?" [ November 20, 2002, 12:34 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wachtmeister Posted November 20, 2002 Share Posted November 20, 2002 Jersey John - Thanks for the info. I did take Greece with an all Italian force. Looks like it may be the timing or just fairly low % chance that Turkey joins the Axis even under the best circumstances. Since Russia declared war about 3 or four turns before the UK surrendered, it was a long, tough fight in the east, that might have been lost without a fairly quick increase to level 5 IT. My guess is that the entry of Turkey would have been decisive, even with less research return on investment. Simple minded? - not sure we achieved that [pun] level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted November 20, 2002 Share Posted November 20, 2002 I've found Russia either collapses or is a Royal Pain. If she's alone it doesn't matter, sooner or later Germany will conquer her. But if she enters early and Britain is okay it's a different story. While looking for a Turkish photo I found dozens more entries for Turkey the bird than Turkey the nation. The nice thing about Forum humor is it's highs and lows often meet each other. [ November 20, 2002, 04:36 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TC27 Posted November 20, 2002 Share Posted November 20, 2002 If Turkey joins the Axis then they can really deal a terrible blow against the USSR getting to all those oil fields that are normally safely tucked away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wachtmeister Posted November 24, 2002 Share Posted November 24, 2002 Ran the "formula" one more time and both Spain AND Turkey joined the Axis when London fell. The entry of Turkey was indeed decisive as expected, especially with the Spanish Army also on board. At expert level w/ experience bonus +1, the entry of Tukey was "lights out" for the USSR by mid '43. Game ended [uSA taken] by late '44, even though I never got any [German]jets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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