Black Sea Fleet in Next Patch?

[Canuck_para]

Originally posted by Norse:

If including this finesse will make it impossible for the German player to attack Norway and Denmark on the same turn, then I say leave it. Germany attacked Denmark and Norway on the same day, 9th april 1940, and I wouldn't like to see that this game makes it impossible to redo this event.

I have a suggestion on how this can be done. The Danes provided very little resistance to the German attack (I am not talking about the mid-war partisans). So if the Danish corps is made weak, say strenght 5, then it would mimic history pretty well. Then Germany would theoretically have the ability to attack Denmark, take Denmark, and then move thru the straight and attack Norway. All this on the same turn.

If however, like I said, it becomes impossible to attack both Norway and Denmark on the same turn for Germany, then I vote on leaving it as it is.

It is still an interesting idea though.

What about giving the fortress strenght 0, so the Germans can move thru as long as they have declared war on Denmark? Then as it gains strenght to 5, it mimics that the Germans are laying out mines etc in the straight, to keep the allies from moving thru. How about that?

~Norse~

But according to my idea, you could do both. Declare war on Norway first and attack it, then after you have moved all units you want, attack Denmark. Because Denmark is neutral the Germans could move past it.

[Guest Mike]

If there's a Soviet Black Sea Fleet then there needs to be a Bulgarian one too - because the Soviet units that ran up against it invariably fleed.

I'm not sure how you'd grade the Bulgarians Fleet tho - it's main surface units were 2 modern and 2 old destroyers and don't seem the fit the description of battleship or Cruiser!! lol (source - The Soviet Navy in WW2, Jurg Meister, 1977)

Other minor pre-war fleets (from Janes Fighting Ships of WW2, which is a compendium of the 1939 and 1946 editions):

Poland - 2 destroyers, 4 submarines,

Norway - 4 very old (2 1900, 2 1897) pre-dreadnough coast defence "battleships" (main armament on each was 2 x 8.2" guns!), 4 modern torpedo boats (1939), 3 old destroyers, 9 submarines

Netherlands - quite a lot really, but much of it in the Pacific: 5 light cruisers, 8 Destroyers, 9 submarines

Spain - 1 heavy and 6 light cruisers, 24 destroyers, 12 modern and 2 old torpedo boats, 5 submarines

Turkey - 1 dreadnought battlecruiser, 2 very old cruisers, 4 modern destroyers, 6 submarines

Yugoslavia - 2 old destroyers, a bunch of old river gunboats acquired from Austria-Hungary after WW1

Finland: 1 relatively modern coast defence battleship (1930), 3 gunboats, 5 submarines

As for adding a port to Copenhagen - sounds like a good idea to me - it'll force the Germans to do a bit of planning if they invade Denmark & Norway.

[Carl G. E. von Mannerheim]

Ah yes a finnish battleship. This would give a bit of depth to the baltic sea battles.

[Desert Dave]

As originally posted by Hubert Cater:

The only drawback I can see to this is that the Axis player can't move their navy out until they conquer Denmark, any comments on this?

No problem. The only way that Germany could have (... and did, w/the Bismark) moved into North Atlantic was -- under cover of adverse weather and the extremely poor visibility conditions.

There is no compelling reason that I can think of, either historically or in game terms, for Germany to want to execute raiding plans BEFORE Denmark is conquered. For one thing, on this map, there is not enough room north of Scapa Flow to even try it. And trying to run the channel would invite too much Spitfire-interest.

So, some sort of restriction would be welcome, such as making Copenhagen similar to Gibraltar or Istanbul. I hope you WILL decide to implement this plan. :cool:

Also, I like the idea of a size-5 corps in Denmark, and a size-5 cruiser for Sweden.

[Canuck_para]

I have more info on some European minor navies if you want it Hubert. I won't bother posting it here. I have found names and ship types for most countries. These small navies will not make a big difference but they could do some damage to transports.

[Norse]

Originally posted by Immer Etwas:

There is no compelling reason that I can think of, either historically or in game terms, for Germany to want to execute raiding plans BEFORE Denmark is conquered.

*throws a history book at Immer Etwas*

As Norse calms down, he realizes that he is still nothing but a savage! Damn!

[Canuck_para]

Another thing on navies. If the UK surrenders there should still be a sizable Canadian navy that could fight the Axis U-Boats and assist the US. This should not be hard to implement. Something along the lines of the Free French navy would work. Of course maybe no one else is interested but me.

[Carl G. E. von Mannerheim]

Im interested.

[Desert Dave]

*throws a history book at Immer Etwas*

There have been far more dastardly things than simply innocent history books hurled in my direction, but no need to elaborate... :eek:

If the corps in Denmark is size-5, and you have 2 or 3 Air Fleets attacking and 2 Cruisers bombarding, and have your revved-up PzIIIs poised on the northern German border, then you can easily take Copenhagen and -- ALSO float your boats to Oslo on the same turn, nicht wahr?

There are 2 U-boat packs already poised in the North Atlantic (... tho, that Brit Carrier is a truly nasty untersee-hunter) and so, again, there is no compelling need to raid the other boats until after Denmark falls.

[Canuck_para]

Originally posted by Carl Von Mannerheim:

Im interested.

Thanks for the support.

[ August 16, 2002, 01:56 PM: Message edited by: Canuck_para ]

[Carl G. E. von Mannerheim]

Dont mention it, anthing to make the baltic a more important battleground or have that uncertanty when england falls im for. Except, if you do allow some royal navy ships to go canadian, than some ships should also go Kreigsmarine.

CvM

[Canuck_para]

Originally posted by Carl Von Mannerheim:

Dont mention it, anthing to make the baltic a more important battleground or have that uncertanty when england falls im for. Except, if you do allow some royal navy ships to go canadian, than some ships should also go Kreigsmarine.

CvM

Well.. the ships I was saying Canada should get were it's own Corvettes and Destroyers, which were made for killing German subs. These ships would not have surrendered to the Germans and would have sailed back to Halifax. This fleet also included some cruisers and Escort carriers, so it was by no means small.