Willing Minor Versus Conquered Territory

[Silvercloud]

Is there any difference at all between a minor joining you of their free will and you conquering them? I don't see any reason to let them join of their free will if I can have my units gain experience on their units that are worth crap anyway and then easily take a capital for 200-350 points.

I believe a minor joined of their own volition should boost MPPS per turn more than one conquered PERIOD, so the germans shouldn't be able to get the same from a conquered nation as they would from one that joined freely. Willing people contributed more to the german war effort than unwilling ones!

Is this represented at all?

[Norse]

Declaring war on your own allies will have big political consequences.

[pzgndr]

Declaring war on your own allies will have big political consequences

But does it? If you select historical entry for axis minors and then blitz through Hungary, what is the actual effect on Rumania and Bulgaria? I expect random entries are affected, but not sure about the historical option. Also not sure what the actual effect may be for Russian intervention, since Hubert may not have seriously considered players doing this. I could see the default setups altered to respond to the new German "threat" and additional partisan activity in the Balkans. Overall it should not be in Germany's long-term interests to fight with the few allies it has, but "What-Ifs" should still be permitted.

[Hubert Cater]

If you conquer a country then their resources will max out at 80% efficiency, whereas if they join you, the resources max out at 100%.

Bill is correct, under historical mode, countries will join you on the historical dates, regardless of how you play. But if you really want to see how countries react to each event best to play in random mode throughout. Random mode takes into consideration all political actions, i.e. you will see percentage wise how Russia and the US react to German agression, and it also takes into account how the minors react to certain actions, i.e. if Germany attacks Hungary, it is most likely that Romania will reconsider joining the Axis etc.

Hope that helps,

Hubert

[Canuck_para]

Originally posted by Hubert Cater:

If you conquer a country then their resources will max out at 80% efficiency, whereas if they join you, the resources max out at 100%.

Bill is correct, under historical mode, countries will join you on the historical dates, regardless of how you play. But if you really want to see how countries react to each event best to play in random mode throughout. Random mode takes into consideration all political actions, i.e. you will see percentage wise how Russia and the US react to German agression, and it also takes into account how the minors react to certain actions, i.e. if Germany attacks Hungary, it is most likely that Romania will reconsider joining the Axis etc.

Hope that helps,

Hubert

Thanks for the info Hubert. Does this mean Romania might join the Allies or does it only mean they might not join the Axis or will wait longer?

[Hubert Cater]

Good question since I know the random option has been the point of some confusion, but the way I have implemented it is to be random within a "historical context". So that would mean that it still only has the chance of joining the Axis, but could be later or not at all kind of thing.

Hubert

[Canuck_para]

Originally posted by Hubert Cater:

Good question since I know the random option has been the point of some confusion, but the way I have implemented it is to be random within a "historical context". So that would mean that it still only has the chance of joining the Axis, but could be later or not at all kind of thing.

Hubert

OK, thanks for the clairafication. Do you think you might ever change the settings where the minor countries could change from their historical sides? Maybe in SC2

[Uros]

Thanks for those answers Hubert !

I would just like to add that Yugoslavia joining the Allies is wrong and historically incorrect . They actually joined the Axis before their goverment was overthrown . And even with that they did NOT join the Allies !

Yugoslavia should be 100% neutral as it had major internal problems ( Serbs vs Croats ).

[Hubert Cater]

I know, I took some liberty with Yugoslavia since the turn lenghts are longer than the existence of the pro-Axis goverment. I could have had two messages with pro-Axis goverment takes power followed immediately by pro-Allied coup but just went with the current system. The yugoslavian allied units are added in at that point to give more meaning to the coup and quantifyy the thorn in Hitler's side. At that point, their coup can be ignored as some players have chosen to do, or as the Axis you can invade and overthrow the coup.

Hubert

[pzgndr]

Really, it seems more appropriate to consider the historical "pro-Allied" coup more as an anti-Axis coup, and essentially returning Yugoslavia to neutral status. So, random entry should be for Yugoslavia to either come in as an axis minor (which it did for a short period) or remain neutral. If it could be coded such that random entry as either an axis minor or allied minor is possible, then THAT would be really interesting. :cool:

[Uros]

Well Yugoslavia was really bit tricky

When we were invaded ( I am from the former YU republic of Slovenia ) Croats proclamed their " independant Croatian state " also called ( NDH ) . This was in fact only a pupped state ( like the Slovakian state ) but it did had its own army and it had major battles with the partisans . Maybe one day Strategic Command will be the first game to simulate such " anti partisan" units in Yugoslavia and USSR

[ July 11, 2002, 04:19 PM: Message edited by: Uros ]

[Stalin's Organ]

I think the size of Pro-German Russian forces is below teh threshold of Sc to replicate. I know of one "state" that maintained 4 brigades of infantry nd 1 of tanks (captured T34's) and kept it's territory clear of partizans without any great trouble - this might amount to almost a corps in SC....almost!!

I don't know how large the various "Yugoslav state armies were, but weren't there aso pro-allied partizans in many of them??

I'm trying to think of another WW2 game I saw recently where partizans were given to the allies and "chetniks" to the Germans but the name escapes me. I'm sure it was a computer game of some sort?? I recall the "Chetnik" units weer black with tan symbols and markings?? But IIRC teh scale was divisional rather than corps/army.

[Camicie Nere]

I would disagree with Stalin's Organ

I believe that the Germans sponsored an actual army of approximately 100,000 men under a former Soviet General named Vlasov.

That's within the numerical scale of SC, certainly, but when you get into the issue of intra-national warring factions it is probably outside of the scope of the game engine.

It would probably be easiest to just take one of your superfluous units and use the "rename" function to turn them into the "Vlasov Army"

[Stalin's Organ]

Camicie Vlasov's troops never got to 100,000 - IIRC 3 very understrength divisions were formed.

But as you say you can just rename the troops anyway!

[Canuck_para]

The Osttruppen got to almost a half million men.

http://www.wssob.com/000tartar.html

[Stalin's Organ]

I believe there were upwards of 750,000 russians of various ethnicities "fighting" with the Germans against Hitlers express orders.

However few or none of these were in "official" units of their own - they were auxiliaries in German units.

Those stationed in the west were very happy to surrender to the Anglo-Americns at about 1000/week by the end of 1944!!