Hitler's Health & How it Shaped World War Two

[Piumarcobaleno]

Curry

I didn't meant that the victors got wrong Hitler's ideas, but just suggesting that maybe if the war had been won (difficult in the real teamline) by Hitler's Deutschland, maybe today we would have been chatting about how drunk was churchill, or how Stalin's madness forced german soldiers to free russian people from his grip.

We probably would speak of italian, french, russian (and jugoslavian, and everyone else's) partisans as they were only a bunch of terrorists, and we would probably have suffered from 9\11 attack from 19 jewish terrorists instead.

I try to understand everyone's feelings and needs, and i believe that Hitler's kills are no worse than everyone else's, the only thing is he lost his war, and so he's blamed as a killer. Likewise, Arabs are terrorists when they blow themselves up in Israel, and jewish soldiers are peacekeepers when they shell palestinians refugee camps to get revenge. They use the same method nazis used: every german soldier killed by partisans equalled to 10 killed civilians.

I'm not speaking of numbers, or trying to tell who was the most evil, or who has the better excuses to go on with his personal murderous path, i'm just saying that i can't stand all the finger-pointing against 2nd WW Germany, while almost every country in the world has done, is doing or will probably do similar things in his history.

[ September 18, 2003, 09:59 PM: Message edited by: Piumarcobaleno ]

[Curry]

Piumarcobaleno - First off I think I understand your main point of how we view things in the past and how one persons patriot is another persons outlaw.

However your illustration of Hitler and his cause is distrubing to me. You stated. "i believe that Hitler's kills are no worse than everyone else's, the only thing is he lost his war, and so he's blamed as a killer."

Hitlers so called Kills by you are far more distrubing. First, he was evil and not only was responsible for the killing of many outside of his country and many jews but of many decent and truth seeking Germans such as Dietrich Bonhoffer and the list goes on and on. His reponsibility with the Nazi's for the holocaust if far more distrubing than per say one black man who was wrongly lynched in the south in the past century. Just the magnatude of what he and the Nazi's were responsible for, the destruction of Europe. The loss of homes, the almost extermination of one race from Europe, 20 million Russians, the destruction goes on and on.

Truth is truth. Regardless of whether Hitler and the Nazi's would have won the war or not. What he and the Nazi's did was the most evil of evil that we have known as man in the recent times. That truth is the same no matter.

[xwormwood]

Originally posted by JerseyJohn:

That Israel and the United States have been working very hard since the early fifies to create enemies and evoke hatred of the rank and file Arabs and Moslems.

To begin with I feel the creation of Israel was a mistake from the start and that this was realized and the only reason it was done was because the powerbrokers expected it to be successfully invaded at birth! Absurd, but true. Just look back at the British efforts to keep arms out of Palestine while helping to arm it's neighbors to the teeth. Of course the Israelis subsequently became militant and even fascist, they had to, they've always existed with a knife at their throat. But the fact is, regardless of the reasons, they've still been instrumental in generating enemies by the millions, not only for themselves, but also for the United States.

Getting back to the formation of that country. I think the wisest choice after WW II would have been to make the British protectorate/colony of Palestine into a United Nations Territory with the U. N. HQ'd in Jerusalem and have the entire area as an open state with complete religious tolerance. This would have created a sanctuary for Holocaust survivors without creating a nation run by a single religious group.

Hmm, in my opinion we (the free world) would have had trouble with the islamic arabs with or without the state of israel.

The problem is the islam, not us or israel. As soon as the arabs got their oil-riches they were able to re-opening the islamic way of big-tent-revivals: take up the sword and conquer allah an empire. Look to Pakistan, Philipines, Grosny or where ever you want. These people want to fight for allah, israel or not. Their religion propose the paradise & 99 virgins if they die for allah while fighting the evil unbelievers. These people have nearly no education, no money, no social systems = nothing to lose but to gain paradise. Their holy book demands to conquer the whole world for the islam (something like "preach to them, and if they don't listen, teach them with the sword). So they would come for us after all. After the turks lost their holy war at the gates of vienna some centuries ago (and it was a very close shape) the islamic world laid in agony until they could afford to fight back again.

Just because the US and Israel took finaly a stand against this misleaded people we shouldn't blame them. I blame my own country for standing aside ...

:mad:

[JerseyJohn]

Kurt Yes, it's speculation, but it would also have been very difficult if not impossible for Hitler or several of his closest to meet the SS racial purity standards.

Hitler, after the war, did maintain ties with the Army and as I recall originally joined the National Socialists to report on their activities!

Mussolini also started out as a Socialist.

The same rumors of a partially Jewish ancestry also about about many other high Nazi officials, most notably Heidrich, Himmler, Goering and Goebbels. Whether any of it is true or not is of no interest to me personally, the whole racial purity idea is horse manure, it's only importance is in regard to the seriousness it was given by the Nazis themselves.

An airmarshal, Milch, was known to have had a lot of Jewish "blood" and Goering's answer was, "In Germany I am the one who says who is and who is not Jewish!" Which is a good indication that even many Nazis considered the whole issue to be bogus and only followed it toward political ends.

The Three Governors of occupied Poland follwed three different standards in this regard, ranging from complete tolerance to total persecution. The most lenient governor allowed any Pole who wished to become Germanized to sign documents stating he or she was of German stock. The name was then put in a German form and they were magically transformed. Their relatives in the other two Graus were considered untermenschen. Absurd, of course.

Getting away from the racial aspects, to me the most important thing the documentary brought out was his growing hurry to get things done toward the end of the thirties and into the forties and it's relevance to his deteriorating health and mental state.

[JerseyJohn]

xwormwood

An interesting slant on the situation and one I can't say is right or wrong because it would only be my opinion.

Which is, that Religious Zealots of any shape and form and of any religion are very dangerous individuals. I've persoanlly seen them appear as Christians, Jews and Moslems, not on television, but in person, and I know from experience that regardless of who they consider their God to be or what they call him, they're equally dangerous and intolerant.

It would be hard to say you're wrong as a literal following of Mohammet's teachings would mean seeking to expand the religion. I don't believe Mohammet had the present day situation in mind, I think he was hoping to unify all Arabs under a single religion, and it is tolerant to non-believers, especially Christians and Jews living within it's borders (at least according to Mohammet's philosphy), which is the sort of thing overlooked by religious fanatics. The Koran also distinguishes between Unbelievers and Disbelievers. The second category being those who should believe, but don't.

A comlicating factor is that the Arab and Moslem world has been on the raw end of European Christian Imperialism for centuries. If I were a present day Arab Moslem I doubt I'd harbor any great affection for any of those other groups we've been mentioning.

If possible, ways should be found to right past wrongs and establish fair treatment for everyone. A good start would be in patching things up between the Israelites and Palestinians. But I don't think any of us will ever see this. And, with a hurricane presently hitting the house, I'll stop short of what I actually do think will happen in that part of the world.

[Piumarcobaleno]

Well, do you really find that hitler's evil is more disturbing that Stalin's? He (and his followers) killed millions of people, not by race but by political thought; i do not believe this is any better than the holocaust.

USA's A-bomb killed Japanese by hundred of thousands (with the explosion and subsequent radiation damages), i do not believe this is any better than the holocaust.

1st world war generals and kings sent to massacre hundred of thousands of soldiers, and because of their political lines even more citizens died of starvation and illness, i do not believe this butchers were any better than Hitler.

Yes, i can kill you with a bomb or with a poisonous gas, but in the end, you are died and i am alive, so do you really believe that you had a better death if you had your rifle on hands?

This is the kind of thought that lead in 1914 many young boys to believe that their emperors' war was the right thing to enlist for. In my opinion they are dead, like anyone else who now no more breathes.

There's no heroism or evil in killing someone, it's just a murder.

I believe there's no good or evil, it's just who kills and who's killed; and, by the way, i think that the largest part of the killed men would rather, if offered the chance, have killed their murder instead of becoming cold meat.

[JerseyJohn]

Piumarcobaleno

"Well, do you really find that hitler's evil is more disturbing that Stalin's? He (and his followers) killed millions of people, not by race but by political thought; i do not believe this is any better than the holocaust.

USA's A-bomb killed Japanese by hundred of thousands (with the explosion and subsequent radiation damages), i do not believe this is any better than the holocaust."

In the first instance you're comparing Satan to Lucifer, not much choice.

In the second instance you're mixing apples and oranges. Dead is dead, of course. But what the United States did with the Atomic Bombs is in no way comparable to the Holocaust. The U. S. didn't seek to erradicate the Japanese people from the surface of the earth, it didn't go around after the war registering all Japanese and sending them to death camps etc & etc, what a horrible comparison and totally erroneous.

It has to also be considered that ten days before dropping the first A-bomb U. S. aircraft showered the potential target cities with warnings for the inhabitants to evacuate to the countryside. These warnings were completely ignored, of course, but at least there was some attempt. Radiation poisoning was not well understood at the time. Many Americans contracted cancer because of this, including the Italian Manhattan Project physisist Enrico Fermi, who years later died as a result.

While the United States was killed as indescrimitly as anyone else, it did not slaughter innocent people for the sake of slaughter, as was the case with the Nazis and Japanese War Lords, and I'm very tired of insinuations that it did.

Why not mention the Japanese doctors who experimented with germ warfare in Mancuria and gleefully killed perhaps hundreds of thousands of Chinese in the course of their work.

It's ridiculous to put the U. S. in the position of villainy. The country was attacked in the Pacific and declared war upon in the Atlantic. The overwhelming majority of Americans wanted nothing to do with the wars raging elsewhere, either in Europe or the Pacific, and a nation of dozens of races certainly had no "ethnic cleansing" in mind!

[ September 18, 2003, 08:48 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Comrade Trapp]

Piumarcobaleno

Your comparing us dropping the atomic bombs on Japan to Hitler and the holocaust?!?! The diffrence is that hundreds of thousands of American lives were saved and probably a large number of Japanese lives were saved in the end as well.

I know this isn't policticaly correct, but I say even if it saved only a thousand American lives, it was worth it. They started the war, we ended it.

Comrade Trapp

[ September 18, 2003, 08:54 PM: Message edited by: Comrade Trapp ]

[Piumarcobaleno]

Please don't take it on the nationalistic side of the thing, Comrade and Jersey, i'm not insinuating anything, i just believe that even if hitler's intention were more evil, the result is that people died anyway.

And please note that i haven't said that USA's A-bombing has been 'evil', or 'cruel', or has been done with the intention of amusing themselves with a mass-murdering attack.

I'm telling that anyone, from Hitler to Stalin, from Churchill to Mussolini, believed to be the 'good one', and tried to convince his country of this; in every leader speech he tries to demonstrate that he is on the right side of something.

In a similar way, the winner of a war sees his deeds as necessaire to the end of the conflict, and the ones of his opponent as only villain attacks, often unchivalrous and with something evil in mind.

I do only find curious that every passed war has been fought and reported this way, so i must suppose that we do live in a very good world, where justice always defeats evil ones!

Again, not insinuating anything.

[JerseyJohn]

Piumarcobaleno

It makes more sense now, you're pretty much saying that the war was full of excesses and everyone thought their side was the right one.

Yes, I agree with that. Also, I've never felt the firestorm raids, such as the ones on Hamburg and Dresden, were militarily necessary. Though the Allies never actually stated it, I think they felt the killing of huge numbers of civilians would sap the enemy's national will to continue.

When a war reaches the point, as it did in World War Two, where entire cities can be levelled and their inhabitants wiped out, then the meaning of victory becomes very questionalbe.

Didn't mean to stomp in so hard, only wanted to clarify the issue. Agreed, the price in human lives in these things has become hideous; the whole basis of the MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction) Doctine of the fifties-sixties-seventies and eighties. As a flightline member of S.A.C. I got to see it first hand, and even we all thought it was lunacy, but if ever came to a war there's no doubt both sides would have automatically vaporized each other, and I'd have been in there with everyone else doing my job right up to the moment of my own vaporization.

[Some_God]

Not to be a crackhead against my own country but America is an Empire in Denial. How about you mention all the bad things americans did in WWII? From the soldiers killing innocent civilians in their own homes to the Generals making stupid decisions that cost hundreds of thousands of lives. Dont try and put the U.S. as the good guys... put us as the confused guys. Nazi Germany committed horrible acts but you could expect that from a radical regime. America on the other hand is a completely different story. Why couldnt America just bomb Tokiyo (dont know how to spell that) and take out the Emperor and tell all the Japs about it so the would stop resisting? Speaking of Japs america had its own concentration camps. Thouhg they didnt kill anyone it was still wrong. you also got to love the A-Bomb thing (everyone uses that for anit-american slogans). Thats like 200 thousand + innocent people dead with horrible things in store for the children thanks to the radiation. To wrap this up America is a good country but dont make it look like its the kind of country that never lies.

EDIT: "The one who wins the war shapes what the loser is." - Some dead dude.

[ September 18, 2003, 10:00 PM: Message edited by: Some_God ]

[Comrade Trapp]

Some_God

Yes, there have been times in American history where the United States was in the wrong. There are even some things we did in WWII that shouldn't have happened.

But we were NEVER wrong in the same way Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan was. We have never launched a genocide campaign against an entire race like Nazi Germany or treat POWs they way Japan did.

Comrade Trapp

[ September 18, 2003, 10:11 PM: Message edited by: Comrade Trapp ]

[jon_j_rambo]

Hitler was possessed by the Devil, that's the source of all his hate & murder, no doubt about it. Stalin, same thing, but change it to "power & murder". Churchill liked to drink, so what, long as he didn't drive drunk. The Germans attacked half the planet, & got their ass kicked, too bad for them. The Germans were overrated, anybody can wipe out sleeping farmers with tanks, it was a different story once we turned our "plowshares to swords". The Japs got nuked, twice, hope they enjoyed the mushroom. My relatives fought for the North in the U.S. Civil War, my Grandfather fought in WW-1, two Uncles in WW-2, one Uncle in Korea, two Uncles in Vietnam, friend in Panama, two cousins in Desert Storm, one cousin in current war. The United States stands for freedom (read our declarations, Bill of Rights, Law books, etc.) & is the best country ever in the history of the world. Far as Israel, the United States needs to plant Old Glory on the Mt. Olives. Far as religion...easy...Jesus saves. All the wars so far are just pre-Game before Armagedon, it's going to happen, because that's the way it reads. I sure wouldn't want to call the Lake of Fire home for eternity either.

Jon J. Rambo, Captain of Team-USA

[jon_j_rambo]

The fire bombing of Dresden was "Well Done", Yes, the pun was intended. The Germans got what they deserved. The Germans murdered everybody they could put their hands on. Hitler had lots of help. I don't believe the crap about it was only the SS & Nazis. The German regular army/navy/air invaded/killed too, and were not justified in their actions.

[JerseyJohn]

Some_God

If any of that was aimed at me I really think you should choose a different target. During the course of my few thousand postings I've been anything but an apologist for the United States or any other country.

No, we did not fight a pristine War. Yes, innocent people died in their beds. No, word never came down from an American General to round anyone up and hold mass executions. There are many other countries that cannot make a similar claim. Which is as much as I've got to say on that item.

As for levelling Tokyo and killing the Emperor, we did level the city and a single firestorm killed as many 100,000 people in one night of fire, which is more than were killed at either Hiroshima or Nagasaki. In a dark way it's almost comical because everything was incinerated except the Imperial Palace! In any event, Japan would not have surrendered with Hirohitto's death, he had relatives and one of them would have become the new Emperor and the war would have continued. It's also doubtful whether any of them, even if they'd wanted to surrender, would have been able to get word past their own sentries!

Below are two views of Tokyo from a 1945 U. S. bombing mission. I don't believe we were pulling any punches.

[ September 18, 2003, 11:31 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Panzer39]

Originally posted by Comrade Trapp:

Some_God

But we were NEVER wrong in the same way Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan was. We have never launched a genocide campaign against an entire race like Nazi Germany or treat POWs they way Japan did.

Comrade Trapp

Although I agree with most of your prior statements, I think how we handled the Native Americans can be called a genocide campaign. I know I don't have to go into the history aspect of it so I won't

[JerseyJohn]

General Rambo

And you shouldn't believe it. Aside from the regular army doing it when ordered from above, hundreds of thousands of Poles, Lithuanians, Latvians, Estonians, Frenchmen, Ukranians and Balkans of various backgrounds willingly, often gleefully, assisted in the rounding up and killing of Jewish men, women and children. There are hundreds of photogaphs taken by the participants and volumes of testimony concerning this. It's a sad fact that many of the people regarded as the SS as being only marginally above the Jews, took part themselves with great enthusiasm in the slaughter of the common scapegoat.

So nobody will think I'm wearing rose colored glasses, let me add I've got little doubt that there are millions of people living in the United States today who would act in a similar manner if the country were ruled by a psychotic regime. Millions more would cooperate without actually killing anyone, and almost all the remainder would keep their mouths shut and act as though nothing unusual were happening.

Having never been faced with such a choice I can't say what my own reaction would be. Heroism isn't something to be counted on, or claimed till after the fact.

Before acting smug about any of this, people everywhere, Americans and everyone else, should give some serious thought to exactly what they would likely do if it suddenly became patriotic to single out and persecute a given part of the population, other than your own. Who would speak out against it -- who would harbor the hunted -- who would point them out -- and who would do the killing.

For my part I have no idea how I'd react if some government goons woke me up and shoved a photo in my face demanding I tell them all I knew about that particular public enemy -- and his equally dangerous wife and children.

Making it very hard to judge anyone who's had the nightmare of living in that sort of regime

[Gaylord Focker]

Originally posted by Comrade Trapp:

Some_God

Yes, there have been times in American history where the United States was in the wrong. There are even some things we did in WWII that shouldn't have happened.

But we were NEVER wrong in the same way Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan was. We have never launched a genocide campaign against an entire race like Nazi Germany or treat POWs they way Japan did.

Comrade Trapp

*edited because i simply echoed Panzer39's sentiments and posted before reading his post.*

[ September 18, 2003, 10:57 PM: Message edited by: Gaylord Focker ]

[CC Baxter]

This thread has prompted, IMHO, some disturbing and sinister posts, even when taking into account the potential for misunderstandings when writing in a second language.

I find myself agreeing with Rambo. Hitler was bar none the greatest threat to humanity of the last century and possibly any century. What the hell Churchill is even doing being discussed in the same company as this evildoer I have no idea. But for Churchill and the RAF in 1940 when Britain stood alone against the legions of darkness we would not be here to have this discussion, nor would we be free to play SC. We would be living it. The consequences of a German victory were and are unimaginable.

I find the views expressed by Oliva and Piumarcobaleno offensive and wrongheaded to a degree with leaves me shocked. Comparing the US use of the atomic bomb with the Holocaust is wrong on so many levels. The US during WWII was, along with the UK, the saviour of the human race.

The age-old harangue of the anti-semite: that the Jewish people "control" capital is the position of the ignorant and the racist. There is no excuse for this type of comment, and it's revealing of the inherent brutality and vileness of the anti-semite permeates through the fuzziness generated by posting in a second language.

[JerseyJohn]

"Regarding my health, which you may recall was the original topic of this Thread, at a hundred and thirteen years old I am feeling much better than I used to. The good crisp Argentine air has done wonders for me, along with sixty years of injecting such marvelous vitamins. See, I'm a professional dancer now, and how many people 113 can make that claim? Acht, it's true that 'Only the Good Die Young!' So I'll be around for a long time to come."

[ September 18, 2003, 11:02 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[JerseyJohn]

C.C. Baxter

Yes, unfortunate, sad and tragic but true. You're right and that's all there is to it.

When I first posted this Thread I thought it would be a quiet little thing with perhaps a half dozen responses and then it would go sliding into obscurity.

What really amazes me is there have been no comments at all on this subject with regard to his military actions during and just before the outbreak of war.

[Comrade Trapp]

Originally posted by Panzer39:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Comrade Trapp:

Some_God

But we were NEVER wrong in the same way Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan was. We have never launched a genocide campaign against an entire race like Nazi Germany or treat POWs they way Japan did.

Comrade Trapp

Although I agree with most of your prior statements, I think how we handled the Native Americans can be called a genocide campaign. I know I don't have to go into the history aspect of it so I won't </font>

[Curry]

Baxter, I agree with you. Some distrubing posts in this thread. Enough said at that.

[CC Baxter]

Hitler and everything he stands for in the collective psyche is a powerful and resonating figure. We in this community seem able to discuss matters of grand strategy, and WWII in an abstracted manner quite amiably and affably. When the monstrous shadow of Hitler himself and all he embodied is thrown into the mix the discusion becomes somehow tainted by the evil associated with this man.

Those who harbour some secret admiration for him and his "Thousand Year Reich" can't help but proffer some case in his defence. They wrap it up in rhetoric, say all other countries and leaders are just as bad. Accuse them of being neo-Nazis and they will deny it. But the thing about being a fascist, closet or otherwise, is that it's like light and dark. You either are or you aren't. There is no in-between.

What really amazes me is there have been no comments at all on this subject with regard to his military actions during and just before the outbreak of war.

If Hitler did have a degenerative illnes as the documentary you cite seems to suggest then it would certainly explain why the war began when it did, in spite of the fact Hitler told his High Command the war would not begin until the mid 1940s. It would also account for the ever more rabid assertions of "no retreat" and "fight to the last man, the last bullet" which seemed to be the limit of his military genius. If Hitler thought or knew he was going to die then in his insanity he may have deemed it necessary to take the world with him. I think I remember reading somewhere that during the final days in the bunker in Berlin Hitler is reported as having said something along the lines of "If I die then I will take the German people and Germany with me."

He now almost certainly lies in the Ninth Cirlce of Hell, encased in a tomb of ice alongside Judas Escariot, held in Lucifer's mouth.

He got what was coming to him.

[jon_j_rambo]

So what was a person living in Germany suppose to do when Hitler started the madness? Escape to the United States would be the best choice, but very difficult indeed. Maybe head for the mountains, but what would one eat? Stay put & try to be seperate? Thank goodness I didn't haven't to be around in that time period in Europe (or Asia for that matter). Hats off to the Warsaw Ghetto, Undergrounds, UK/RAF, Resistance, & all those who did their best against the Germans.

Far as the United States treatment of the Natives, we have some sin ourselves as a Nation. This would take some historical background to properly anaylsis this issue. The first batch of newcomers to the New World weren't Americans, they were Europeans So maybe it was the Euros fault That's a joke by the way. Plymouth Rock dudes got along with the Natives, we call it Thanksgiving. The Natives sold their land later in New York. The French, English, Spanish, & Portuagesse had lots of dealings & wars with the Natives. Disease wiped out a million or more. The Natives also butchered themselves without our guns & firewater too. The U.S. Government had treaties & double crossed sometimes, & the Natives probably double crossed sometimes too. The Natives weren't treated very well in general by the United States, marching them to Oklahoma. Not all new Americans mistreated Natives, attacked them, killed their food source. Trappers, homesteaders, true Christains, & regular people were able to coexist with the Natives. General Custer got what he deserved chasing the Natives all the way into no man's land Montana.

The U.S. Civil War showed the Great Divide which existed amongest ourselves in the 1800's. Abolisionists like John Brown gave their lives fighting against Slavery. My relatives are in Pennsylvania still & fought for the Northern cause against slavery.

The future of the United States will be interesting. History proves nations come & go. We will make mistakes & have sin. The current forces of Evil are most likely trying to get Weapons of Mass Destruction. I hope they don't get them.