Hitler's Health & How it Shaped World War Two

[JerseyJohn]

The Discovery Health Channel aired a very interesting one hour Documentary tonight about Adolf Hitler and his state of mind as Fuhrer.

Essentially, it states that from 1932 onward he was deteriorating both physically and mentally from early onset Parkinson's Disease. He made a statement after the Munich Conference, which I didn't catch in this documentary, but it fits, that he'd rather begin the Big War when he was fifty than when he was fifty-five. According to this documentary, by age fifty he knew he'd probably be dead by age fifty-five.

If this is true, it explains the acceleration of events from the Austrian annexation onwards, and also his frenzied Holocaust beginning with the Wansee Conference. Aside from explaining his ever growing tendancy toward irrational decisions, it helps clear up the fits of rage that came over him ever more often as he grew older

Interestingly, the research was done primarily by an American Jewish neurologist living in Brooklyn who wanted to find out why Hitler was so determined to exterminate the Jewish people. In his opinion this was profoundly insane and there had to be a better explanation than just saying he was insane.

In an attempt to fight the sickness, Hitler fell in with a quack doctor who's special secret medication, injected daily into Hitler's bloodstream, was Speed!

It is titled something like Hitler, Medical Secrets. A very well done presentation with interesting information that overflows into other aspects of Hitler's life and actions.

[ September 17, 2003, 11:29 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[H.J. von Arnim]

JerseyJohn,

the reason why Hitler wanted to eliminate all jews (sorry for the word) was that he was blaming a jewish doctor for the death of his mother.

There exists several historic books dealing with this (mostly written in german but this shouldn't be a problem for you right now *gg*)

Nothing more and nothing less !

Greetings from Vienna

[kurt88]

The reason for the persecution of the Jewish people is MUCH more complicated than that.

Although the death of his mother and the feeling about his approaching death might be factors,there are several more reasons for Hitler's antisemitism.

One of the most important is the fact that Hitler was devastated by Germany's defeat in WWI.He had very strong nationalist feelings and was a very dedicated soldier in the trenches.Hitler was awarded 2 times with an iron cross.Upon seeing the morale and condition of the Germans behind the frontline,Hitler was shocked.How could a great people like the Germans be in such a condition.

Then the revolution started and Germany was forced to sue for peace while Hitler was being treated in a military hospital after a gas attack affected his eyesight.He broke down in tears.

He needed someone to blame.The Reds and the Jews were perfect for this.

Another factor in Hitler's anti-semitism was the influence of the major of Vienna,a fervent Jew-hater.Adolf lived there before WWI and was easily influenced by political parties and propaganda that spoke off pan-germanism and the evil of 'outlanders',mostly Jews and communists.

I'm sure there are other factors to consider aswell.

A very good book on the subject is Ian Kershaw's 'Hitler' in 2 parts,a great biographical read

JJ

On the matter of his medical condition,Kershaw wrote that it is possible that Hitler experienced several hallucinations from the gas attack he was a victim of in the trenches.These could have caused a sort of delirium,a 'bad trip' that would affect his later actions and convictions.

Most of this remains speculation though.

[Archibald]

I have to agree with Kurt88 that we just don't know what motivated Hitler's anti-semitism. For my tuppence worth I would add the virulent anti-semitism that infected Austria in general, and Vienna in particular, at the beginning of the last century.

Despite being much smaller than Germany, and only being absorbed into the Reich in 1938, Austrians played a major role in the Final Solution. A quote from USAJewish.com:

The Austrian “contribution” to the Holocaust was far greater than even these figures might suggest. Not only was indigenous Jew-hatred in pre-1939 Austria greater than in Germany, but Austrians were disproportionately involved in planning and implementing the “Final Solution.” Apart from Adolf Hitler himself, the Austrian-born architect of the Holocaust, there were Adolf Eichmann, who was in charge of Jewish deportations from the Reich and most of occupied Europe; Odilo Globocnik (formerly gauleiter of Vienna), who supervised all the death camps in Poland; Ernst Kaltenbrunner from Linz, who succeeded Heydrich as head of the Reich Head Security Office and effectively coordinated the bureaucracy of the Final Solution; and Arthur Seyss-Inquart, Reich commissioner of the Netherlands and responsible for the deportations of Dutch Jews. And this is not to mention the fact that 40 percent of the personnel and most of the commandants of the death camps at Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka were Austrians, or that 80 percent of Eichmann’s staff were recruited from his Austrian compatriots.

I doubt there is any one cause for Hitler's malevolent hatred. The agonizing death of his mother under the care of a Jewish doctor, the anti-semitism endemic to pre-1914 Vienna, and the brutalizing effect of the Great War probably all contributed to Hitler's obsessive hatred.

An excellent work which seeks to analyse Hitler's underlying motivations, and the motivations of those who study him, is Ron Rosenbaum's Explaining Hitler

It gives a fascinating account of the death of Hitler's mother.

[ September 18, 2003, 01:09 PM: Message edited by: Archibald ]

[oliva2003]

All that you are talking guys is true. But there are anothers darkness reasons to explicate the exterminate of the jews.

What do you know about the "Thule Society"? And what about the crash of 1929, that destroyed the economy of europe( germany too) while the industries, shops and banks were propierty of the Jew community?( now 5 of the 10 biggest inversion banks of USA are propierty of Jews, Zionists. And what about the economical politics of the Nazis? they did not want a state based in the capital, and What is capital, the banks...

I mean that there are more explications about the "poor" jew holocaust, the history tell us that the winners want to tell. Remember this:

The history is written by the Winners, not by the defeated.

[Curry]

Oliva stated "I mean that there are more explications about the "poor" jew holocaust, the history tell us that the winners want to tell. Remember this:The history is written by the Winners, not by the defeated"

1. I dont understand what you mean by "poor"? what do you mean by "poor" jew holocaust?

2. Yes history is written by the winners. But that does not make it untrue. Are you therefore saying that the history concerning the start of WWII or of the holocaust is somehow untrue because it was written by the winners or Hitler and his fellow evil men are somehow not to blame?

I do not understand your post and its implications.

[Curry]

I tend to agree with Kurt, why Hitler was the way he was concerning his anti-semitism or anything else is much more complicated then his mothers doctor.

[Archibald]

Originally posted by oliva2003:

The history is written by the Winners, not by the defeated.

Speaking as a card carrying untermensch, thank goodness in this case it was.

[ September 18, 2003, 01:05 PM: Message edited by: Archibald ]

[Piumarcobaleno]

Well Curry, i'm not Oliva so i'm answering you on my own, not on his behalf, but anyway...

You can see the same effect nowadays: with all the respect i can feel, take a look at 11\9 and his consequences, what will world remember in 2050? That the evil empire of Saddam sent his prince of terror to crush the will of the peace-loving americans. But you can see that this is not the right point of view: it should be remembered that these last 50 years have been full of confrontations between jews and arabs, and that probably the way of life of a becoming-terrorist is much different from an european\north american dweller.

I just say that history has to be written from the winner, because only this way it will let people still believe in their governments.

Another interesting thing is that even The Duce's health conditions deteriorated much with the worsening military situation; and to relate this thread with SC, here's a SC2 wish: how about some setting for policies with conquered nations population? (it could, for example, affect plunder, partisans %, cities max efficience)

[kurt88]

and to relate this thread with SC, here's a SC2 wish: how about some setting for policies with conquered nations population? (it could, for example, affect plunder, partisans %, cities max efficience)

Interesting,maybe you should set up another thread for this!

[Leopard]

A very large factor in this is found in the adage "Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely".

Having seen firsthand in rural 1960's and 1970's Texas the whispered racism, all it takes to surface is a whispered crack or slant, a knowing smile or remark in return, and the bonding of hate against a people. It is a common human frailty. The implied remarks and cracks when fishing for similar "good old white boys", I know there is an undercurrent of hate which can seem dormant or non-existent in normal soceity.

Until the influences of society are removed.

Look at the anti-Arab reactions in America over the Oklahoma City bombing-until it was found to be an American white man. Look at the post 911 hate that found its way into quiet conversations. The day after 911, a former friend of mine made the statement "we should nuke all of those lunatics OVER THERE. They are nothing but a bunch of murdering $%$^%@^#@ and terrorists". This from a college graduate who I had previously respected the opinion of. I have never thought about him in the same way since.

But without societal influences, seemingly normal people can become the most hateful, bitter, barbaric, and mob-like people imaginable. Some of the conversations I have heard use ridiculous logic and premises to explain the hate and contempt they have grown to feel towards others. And many of these people have never personally been affected by any of the people they hate. Their hate is more of a self-image issue in reality.

But when a person with low values or self-respect has a chance to "elevate themselves" by looking down on another group, even if by no other reason than a difference in religion, heritage, or skin color, they often will.

Hitler didn't begin by screaming his views. He began by whispering and then by talking in supporting environments, then by tempering it (on the surface) for mass appeal. He eventually removed known social obstacles such as the educated, cultural and religious from their positions of influence. And violently reacted to any public opposition.

I think the support he received initially among his followers in the late 20's and early 30's empowered him to new levels of hate and his power enabled him to remove any opposition. He considered himself not only the spokesman of this hate, but also the judge, jury, and executioner.

His early Nazi party rhetoric had convinced himself (and others) that they were not the losers of WWI, but the victims of persecution themselves.

Revenge is a close friend of hate.

[Curry]

Piumarcobaleno - ?

From your illustration are you saying that is the case with Hitler and the Holocaust? That we (UK, USA, URRS) got it all wrong????

[ September 18, 2003, 03:12 PM: Message edited by: Curry ]

[kurt88]

Leopard

Completely agree with you.

That's exactly what happenend to Hitler I think.

After the war he spoke for the Army.German Command was of the opinion that most of the soldiers needed to be cleansed from bolshevist and revolutionary ideas.So Hitler took assignements as a speaker for the Army.That's how he managed to remain in the Reichswher till 1920.

(Returning to civil life had no promise for him,he completely failed as an artist/architect)

Later he began to speak in the beerhalls of Munich more loudly,gaining more and more support.

Then his failed putch happenend and he was sent to jail where he wrote Mein Kampf (more self-elevating).

By the mid thirties Hitler was screaming out his hatred in front of thousands of people through a microphone.

The time and mentality in Germany at that time was ready for hatred,someone to blame... and thus revenge.

[JerseyJohn]

H.J. von Arnim

Actually, there is an abundance of books in all languages on Hitler and/or the Holocauset and I've read many of them, but thanks for listing this one, which I am not familiar with.

Regarding Hitler's anti-Semitism; according to this documentary it was Hitler himself who insisted that the Jewish doctor use the unproven and contiversial treatment on his terminally ill mother. It was used and is now known to be medically useless. Unfortunately, while having no beneficial effects it is agonizing for the patient recieving it.

I agree that Hitler's anit-semitism was fueled by his mother's death while being treated by a Jewish doctor, but I don't agree that is the A-Z of the Holocaust. It would have to run much deeper than that and have myriad complications.

"mostly written in german but this shouldn't be a problem for you right now 'gg'*

--I wish it weren't, but I'm still groping with a word here and another there. At the rate I'm going now I'll be able to read a little German by my 80th birthday.

[ September 18, 2003, 03:37 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[JerseyJohn]

Kurt

Thanks for recommending that bio, as it's in English I'll keep an eye out for it. I'm also looking for a used copy in German of the one recommended by von Arnim; reading it with a translation dictionary might be a good way to help learn the language.

I agree that Hitler must have underwent a profound transformation at the front in WW I. I believe, in simple terms, he became insane during the war. And he wasn't alone, the trenches must have produced hundreds of thousands of people with maladjusted personalities similar to Hitler's. I believe he rose to power, in large part, representing those masses of disgruntled and deranged survivors of the First World War. They would all have had similar views and opinions and would have followed someone expressing them.

[JerseyJohn]

Archibald

Yes, I pretty much agree with everything you've stated and thanks for that book recommendation, I'll try and find it. On this side of the Atlantic they make every effort to keep good books well hidden!

[JerseyJohn]

Olivia

I understand your views and what you're saying but, to be honest -- and I know English is not your primary language -- the way you stated it would be very offensive to many people.

It's true that the Jewish people are identified the world over with bankers, industrialists, professional people, etc. ... but I've also known many who were ordinary blue collar workers, so for me the stereo-type is only superficial.

I hadn't intended to start a discussion about anti-Semitism, but regardless of one's personaly prejudice the desire to elimate a single segment of humanity by the scores of millions, including children who have done nothing at all to warrent it (assuming any of the others had, even in this warped reasoning) is too odious to rationalize. Aside from which, Hitler's fatal loathing extended to Gypsies, homosexuals, communists, Slavs and, given time, might have included many others he felt a personal dislike for.

What amazes me about his venting of these hatreds is (1) he was almost certainly part Jewish (2) when he left the Army he at first gravitated to and joined a socialist organization and there is even a photograph of him with other members and (3) even if he wasn't an active homosexual his adult lifestyle certainly seemed to lean in that direction.

[kurt88]

JJ

I have some video tapes dealing with Hitler's generals.

On one of them there's some footage of the 1936 Olympics in Munich.At one point the camera zooms in on Hitler's balcony.The great dictator is seen rocking back and forth in a mesmerizing fashion,just like a mental case.I remember feeling quite uneasy at that moment.Images of a man that at a certain time had almost all of Europe at his feet... :eek:

[JerseyJohn]

Curry

My reaction as well, but as stated above, I think much of that was just poor wording.

[Leopard]

Kurt88,

You read into my comments perfectly. Hitler’s first job he was EVER good at was his WWI service. He became somebody, and his job afterwards of "debriefing" the returning soldiers found an even better skill that had been hidden-public speech. He was among the greatest ever at public speech. And his growing confidence and exposure led him further into his beliefs that he was correct, and that he spoke for many Germans.

The fact is (this is the primary question I originally had in studying Nazi Germany and WWII) that the German nation did not feel good about itself after WWI. The stiff post-war reparations imposed by France and the UK further annoyed them.

It hurt even more because many Germans never felt militarily defeated, and that in their own minds, it was only because of the greater alliance including the USA that Germany had not won the war. As such, the post-war to many Germans should have been more akin to a cease-fire, or essentially a draw. The penalties imposed by the "smaller nations" were more like total annihilation or defeat, not a draw.

The world economic crisis of 1929 added pressure to the war reparations and the Germans feelings of being taken advantage of by the post-war victors.

This added a large amount of bitterness and a complete lack of closure to World War I for many Germans, not just the fanatical. The German citizens of the 1920's and 1930's were in need of something or someone to improve their self-image, and it came with heavy baggage.

When the opportunity arose to gain power, Hitler grasped at it. The first attempt landed him in jail but his second attempt through the system succeeded. And in widening circles, he furthered his self-confidence in his ideas and influence while eliminating or ignoring opposing opinions.

Others soon learned that to have similar beliefs meant more power and more influence, and some who otherwise would not have engaged in this madness soon became lured by the opportunity to gain power.

[JerseyJohn]

Piumarcobaleno

Yes, agreed in large part, for every action there has to be a cause even if sometimes the reaction is disproportionate.

Regarding 9/11, I've made a lot of enemies in my neighborhood becuase I've continued saying the same thing after the Towers that I said before it happened. That Israel and the United States have been working very hard since the early fifies to create enemies and evoke hatred of the rank and file Arabs and Moslems.

To begin with I feel the creation of Israel was a mistake from the start and that this was realized and the only reason it was done was because the powerbrokers expected it to be successfully invaded at birth! Absurd, but true. Just look back at the British efforts to keep arms out of Palestine while helping to arm it's neighbors to the teeth. Of course the Israelis subsequently became militant and even fascist, they had to, they've always existed with a knife at their throat. But the fact is, regardless of the reasons, they've still been instrumental in generating enemies by the millions, not only for themselves, but also for the United States.

Getting back to the formation of that country. I think the wisest choice after WW II would have been to make the British protectorate/colony of Palestine into a United Nations Territory with the U. N. HQ'd in Jerusalem and have the entire area as an open state with complete religious tolerance. This would have created a sanctuary for Holocaust survivors without creating a nation run by a single religious group.

[kurt88]

What amazes me about his venting of these hatreds is (1) he was almost certainly part Jewish (2) when he left the Army he at first gravitated to and joined a socialist organization and there is even a photograph of him with other members and (3) even if he wasn't an active homosexual his adult lifestyle certainly seemed to lean in that direction.

1.There are indeed lots of rumors about this.Also there are a lot of rumors of incest in Hitler's family.Neither of them have been proven however.

This remains purely speculation.

2.Hitler indeed marched along in a Red demonstration.He was seen there by several witnesses wearing a red band around the arm.

This was in 1919,Munich,where things at the time were very explosive.At one point there was even a communist regime,the Raterrepublic,ruled in the true bolshevic tradition.Another great faction in Bavarian politics that time were the Social-Democrats.

Hitler later commented that he choose between the least of two evils.He was there as a spokesman for the army.He was stationed at Munich in a reserve battalion,preparing for demobilization.At one time the battalion or the majority of it's soldiers joined the revolutionary forces there.Thus Hitler,he was no hero,was forced to join either the commies or the socialists.He choose the latter.

3.Kershaw in his books that Hitler was disgusted with sexuality in general.

[JerseyJohn]

Kurt and Leopard

Interesting material that I can't respond to at the moment.

Kurt

I've seen that footage of Hitler rocking back and forth. Yes, it's very revealing and verifies that those close to him had to have known of his various problems and probably even that he had an irriversable deteriorating condition. Many personal accounts of people close to Hitler describe him as caring and a very good person to be a friend of. No doubt the overwhelming majority of those around him felt a reall friendship and would have done their best to help conceal all traces of his infirmities.

In the United States the entire beurocracy and press corps successfully hid the fact that FDR couldn't walk!

[Curry]

JJ - you responded much better than I and expressed my own view concerning Oliva.

[ September 18, 2003, 04:23 PM: Message edited by: Curry ]

[JerseyJohn]

Curry -- if I hadn't read your response first my own would have been similar to it. It's hard to discuss sensitive issues like that one.

[ September 18, 2003, 08:05 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]