Some Allied Strategies

[pzgndr]

...a shambles?

Well ... at least a "disrupted" defense, enough to drive on to Paris and that's the general point. Was it really later, in August? I can't keep all these games straight. Maybe time to check into that Wargamers Anonymous support group ...

[BriantheWise]

Hubert,

I find your defense of France to be extremely eloquent and clearly thought out. Crystal, especially the relived defense. But a couple of things that I wonder about are:

1) For the french, I never bought an army. Too pricey to buy, and too pricey to fix. When the Axis air attacked my armies, it seems that they pay the same price in hits as a corps. So I tended to be a hex forward, and backfill as best I could with corp fodder.

2) Since I'm going to lose the french fleet anyways, I scurried most of them (all actually) to the Med, and attacked the Italians as soon as they joined the Axis, with a little help from the British fleet already stationed there. This eliminates the threat to Egypt and reduces the value of the conquest of Spain to the Axis.

3) Since I'm going to get into a war of attrition with the Axis anyways, I always, as the British, try to buy tech during the first five to six turns. This makes my HQ cheap (er), as well as the air replacements I am going to have to buy. Since, as the British, I choose not to contest France, I have lost no experience opportunities, since I have gained none.

A) I had never really considered the value of port reduction as a means to an end. I always had kind of thought it was an expensive endeavor. Your strategy here, of reducing the ports so they can't be used, is enlightenment to me.

One of the things that your setups have shown me, is that this game, seemlingly so simple on its face, such simple elegance, is much more deeply thought out, makes more sense, and is more balanced, than I had anticipated or considered. It's a great game. Thanks.

[Hubert Cater]

Glad to see you may have found some use from the above ideas, but of course my sample strategy is definitly not the be all end all of Allied strategies as I am sure there are many variations and optional methods that players have become accustomed to using. The defence of france strategy I outlined above usually has a nice effect the first couple of times you use it on the unsuspecting Axis player, after that there are definitly ways around it and it will have to be modified once again. I would say that no strategy is fool proof and you really have to be dynamic in your thinking, e.g. once your opponent changes the equation of battle the result is that very often so too must you.

Hubert

[Reepicheep]

Fellas, I took part in the PBEM Challenge Hubert had initiated a while back; and here is the report I sent him, altered somewhat. My opponent and I both listed our strength as being the Allies.

My Axis Attempt - Loss

Not having played the 1939 campaign against a human before, I was unprepared for dealing with a French HQ. It took me a while to figure out that the only practical counter was a fourth air fleet; and by that time I had purchased two or three research points. It took me far too long to get one; and I never conquered France, though I came close. Russia declared war too soon- I had moved a fourth corps out to the eastern defenses, and it looked as if their war readiness shot up suddenly. I moved it back (I didn't mean it- really! ), but it was too late. I was steamrolled. (And I probably would have lost even had I conquered France; I sustained fairly heavy losses in the campaign there, and couldn't have competed with Russia's industry.)

By the way, I won three advances- all in industry.

My Allied Attempt - Victory

As the Polish, I was able to take an opportunity or two to damage enemy units (a HQ, I think, and definitely a cruiser that had docked). I declared war on Belgium; and while I did not take it for a long time, it slowed down Germany due to loss of plunder and perhaps a stiffer French line. I moved the Malta air fleet to London, and moved the Mediterranean carrier to English seas. I sold the French air fleet and the British bomber to buy HQ's. I also garrisoned the western French ports with U.K. units so they would not surrender when France did.

The French lines were breached thanks to a foolish mistake and great Axis rolls. I attacked a tank group with the central Maginot garrison, and the French army was knocked down to 4 strength. Though heavily entrenched, they were destroyed the next turn- allowing the Axis to achieve their breakthrough in the center of the Maginot Line (I think my forces near Belgium would have fallen soon anyhow, but it was worth a chuckle or two ).

But I was able to turn France and the Low Countries into an Axis cauldron, both before and after France fell. Overall, I think my forces there scored two HQ's- Bock and Manstein, at least four or five air fleets, and various other stuff (no tanks, though). Most of that was a result of air power.

I lost both ports, a carrier (forgot about the German navy), and an air fleet (in attack- stupid move), and wasted a research point by selling it to get another air fleet. But I gained back Brest fairly quickly, knocked out most of the German navy, eventually wound up with five air fleets, improved Montgomery to full experience, and slowed down the Axis tremendously. The Axis eventually pulled out of range, leaving mostly Italian units as garrisons.

Though the Axis conquered Yugoslavia and were bolstered by the normal Axis minors, they did nothing else except prepare a (good) defensive wall on the East Front. The Russians declared war; and while their border troops were pummeled, the Axis could not mount an effective offensive- and they were thrown back without having taken a single Russian city. Also, due to the tremendous Axis air losses in the West, the Russians were able to conduct a successful air campaign.

The U.K. continually pulverized enemy troops within air fleet range, cleared Belgium and conquered it, liberated France with a corps or two, and began landing more forces at Belgium. The U.S. declared war, but their forces wouldn't have been missed if they hadn't. The U.K. launched an invasion of Germany from Belgium and France; and with the Russians pressing hard from the East, Germany was steamrolled. Italy didn't last much longer.

I only won one significant tech advance- level one industry for the U.K. (and I forgot to place the Russian chits until the end- not that it mattered). May have gotten something else near the end, but I can't remember (it was moot anyhow).

In conclusion, I suspect most players have not taken advantage of the opportunity to significantly hurt the Axis war machine in the battle for France. Also, I exploited the fact that interception generally hurts the interceptor more than the attacker (at least, it seems that way:)). In this case, it could be that with the Montgomery HQ and U.K. air fleets based in London, their potential is maximized- leading to that effect. Regardless, their efficiency can allow the Allies to gain momentum- and experience- and thus destroy enemy air fleets more easily. Overall, I think my opponent played well as the Axis; I suspect the U.K. strategy of grinding down the Axis in France mostly through use of air power is simply hard to counter. The Maginot if used properly forces the Axis to fight along the coast within range of London and the U.K. carriers, which can be devastating.....

I'm playing my opponent again; and this time he's fielding five air fleets to tackle France (and so am I in the mirror game) . We'll see how it goes....

[ev]

I have only played against the AI so far, but in my experience the timetable is the most important thing for the Axis player.

In my most recent games, when playing Axis I am moving from Poland straight to France. Forget about Denmark and Norway. I operate my Infantry Armies and Reinforce them while the tanks ride all the way to Belgium.

I attack the low countries in December 1939, before the French have time to build up. Usually I take the low countries in one week. In the January turn I am already moving into northern France, which simply don't have enough units to cover the whole front.

According to my time table, by the third turn of 1940 the Germans should reach the outskirts of Paris, triggering Italy into the war. A human player could prevent this by retreating the units from the Maginot to defend Paris. But the AI won't retreat fast enough.

It takes one or two turns further to fully surround Paris. Meanwhile, I use my German Corps to pocket the unsupplied Maginot Armies, which I never attack.

I take France with minimal losses. But the timetable is key. Must attack France on the December, or earlier.

After taking France, I take Denmark, and Norway. I don't know whether it is worth it to attack Sweden, since it triggers Russia into war. I never attack Greece. It is not worth upsetting the Russians or the US over it.

The resources that I would use in Sweeden or Greece are much better put to use in Egypt, where I don't provoke the Russians.

In fact, sometimes I wonder if I should pass on Norway... to keep Russia in the safe side. But, it is so easy to take Noway in one turn (only need 3 airplanes in Denmark, 1 army, 1 corps)

Don't know what I would do as an Allied player against such strategy.

I may prepare a Campaign to try this out.

Napoleon used to say that when facing two armies you must attack the strongest one first. The 1939 campaign is set up in such a way that it is most tempting to attack Poland first. After knocking the Poles, the strongest army left in the field is the French. It should be the top priority for the Germans. Deviating from this priority is very dangerous.

[murks]

ev, don't forget that attacking minors does not only upset America and Russia, it also makes other minors be more inclined to join you. Even Spain and Turkey may join you if they feel the axis is unstoppable. When playing the AI, there is usually enough time to take all of Scandinavia (remember Norwegian resources count more when you own spain) and maybe greece before the USSR enters the war. It doesn't matter if they are at 60% or 90% when you start Barbarossa, so I'd say you are in most cases making it harder for yourself by not taking as many minors as possible. Of course, you should never attack the minors that are axis-friendly anyway (Spain, Turkey). Take the others and hope you are lucky and they will join you.

Also, I am not sure if operating your infantry to the west is worthwile the cost. You'll probably face an army (and maybe a corps) less than when walking and the money spent is consumed, not invested. I prefer to invest in tech and air fleets before attacking france.

[ev]

Originally posted by murks:

...I am not sure if operating your infantry to the west is worth the cost. You'll probably face an army (and maybe a corps) less than when walking and the money spent is consumed, not invested. I prefer to invest in tech and air fleets before attacking france.

You don't need to operate everything. Just enough to take the Low Countries in one week while the rest of the soldiers march along. I am still play testing this, but I would operate:

2 Armies.

HQ Rundstet.

1 Tank Group if both of them are still deep in Poland.

Probably I also operate HQ Bock.

Planes can fly on their own. But, you absolutely need all of them.

If you take Poland in two weeks, and then operate these units in the third week, You have a very good chance of taking the low countries in the fourth week. This is how I do it:

I bypass the corps in Holland and go straight for the Belgian Capital. Attack first with my best Infantry Army. Second attack with second Infantry army accross the river. Third thru Fifth attacks with Airfleets. All attacking units must start the turn next to my best HQ to insure maximum readiness (you have to plan this carefully in advance). Finally use the Tank Group to occupy the cleared capital city.

You should move a corps to cover your left (southern) flank.

There is a chance that Brussels won't fall. It is risky If Brussels falls in this turn, you are really cooking...

And, any way, what is the risk? What allied units are there available to do anything December 1939? The French must guard the Maginot. Else you blow it. And the French must guard Paris, else they are history. The Brits don't have any land units. Bottom line, the field is all yours even if Brussels holds for an extra turn.

...now, let's say Brussels fell. Your second Tank Group should be arriving into the Ruhr area in this turn. The tough question here is what to operate and what to save to buy an additional HQ in your 5th turn with the plunder from the Low Countries.

On the sixth turn, the door to France is wide open. Go for it.

Last night I tried waiting just a bit more before attacking the Low Countries. Two more turns were enough to buy Manstein and to bring a couple of Infantry Armies. It worked like clock. France fell in May. If you don't want to take the Brussels gamble, this is the way to go.

But, even in this waterdown version of my strategy I operate some I. Armies. They are just to slow.

Try operating some units to push forward your timetable. ...and let me know.

As far as the total investment made in operating the units forward. Think of how much you will save in Reinforcements. I like this strategy because you are fighting a much smaller French Army. Which means you end up taking much smaller losses. Plus you have a couple of extra turns worth of French production.

[jon_j_rambo]

There are some interesting ideas posted here. It doesn't matter what you do even if you're successful.

Bottom Line:

1) Germans are in full control. Don't rush anything.

2) Americans are worthless, they're no factor.

3) The game needs changed before

4) The Allies are toast.

jon_j_rambo

[ev]

A review on my prior strategy for attacking Belgium:

A got much better result if attacking Belgium on Game Turn five (just wait one additional turn) and as follows:

Ride you two Tank Groups back from Poland on turns three and four. (each of them must have at least 8 strength points).

In turns 3-4 also Fly to the Belgian Frontier and Reinforce your Air Fleets.

Buy Manstein (in the Belgian frontier) in turn 3 with the plunder from Poland.

In turn five, attack Belgium with 2 tank groups and 2 corps. By pass the Dutch Corps and go straight for the capital. Attack with both Tank Groups through through the none river hexes. (One of the tank groups can squeeze into the hex south of the capital city.

Finish off the city garisson with your airfleets.

Its just amazing how much punch Manstein adds to the attack. I tried this 3 times and always cleared the city after the first or secon air attack.

Finally take the city with one of your corps and move a second corps to the Ardeness Forest to cover your flank.

Christmas in Belgium feels really nice. You get a nice plunder (which I use to buy Rommel). You get a city and a port (better than Denmark). And you get a great launching pad for your French Operation.

By then your infantry corps from poland should be arriving to help you guard any open spot in the line.

You don't need to operate anything, and you push your timetable forward quite a few weeks.

There is a section here on the Dutch Gambit. That may be the best strategy to counter this move. See you all over there.