Extended Bidding

[JerseyJohn]

Now that Bidding based upon the 1939 Fall Weiss Scenario has spread into PBEM play, I've been toying with the following system and am very interested in opinions on it.

At Present, the bid is UK:USSR MPPs, as in 1:4 thru 1:8. This works for competitive purposes but leaves many things out.

I was wondering about something like this:

UK:USSR:USA:ITALY -- Unassigned Tech UK:France:Germany:Italy with Free French turned OFF as an incentive to fight in France itself.

It might look something like this:

UK:USSR:USA:ITALY::UK::FR::GER::ITALY

200:800:100:100 Tech 3:1:3:1 -- Free French OFF.

Any ideas or opinions?

[Oak]

Since the purpose of bidding is to even things out for the Allies, it seems like giving MPP and free research to the Axis is contrary to that purpose.

Also, giving so many free tech chits at the start is likely to heighten the tendency towards a heavy use of air that so many people complain about.

[JerseyJohn]

The specifics are only given as examples, they could be set at any figure the two players choose. UK could be given 3 chits and Germany 2 or whatever the players agree to.

The idea here is to arrive a complete game setting instead of tilting things one way or the other.

By way of adjustment, instead of just stacking MPPs toward the Allies, it could be something like the MPP bid, followed by unassigned research, maybe offering an edge there to the allies instead of increasing the MPP amount.

Turning Free French off would have to be agreed to by both, of course, and incorporated into the bidding.

[ August 30, 2003, 01:05 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[kurt88]

Could be interesting,best way to try it out is to have a game with this bidding.(let's start a game )

It involves quite a bit,so finding a good balance could take a while but it could give some good results.

Oak does have a point though,3 chits already on air on turn 1 would only add to the air war.

[JerseyJohn]

The idea is still not well developed to me, but I think it could work. The problem normally is it's hard for one or both sides to get started with their research. House Rules aren't very good in this area as a lot of advances are sometimes made with 1 chit and none with five!

I'd say if one side or the other wants to put all their research in a single area there's no great advantage to be gained because it tends to be very random. Personally I like to spread them out. Normally it leads to 2s and 3s in most areas by the middle of the war, which is about all anyone can reasonably expect.

My PBEMs have freed up a bit, if you really would like to give it a try I'd be honored to accept. As we haven't had a PBEM League game, if you want to do it using this screwy untried idea --? -- I mean, this innovative concept!

The UK and German jet L=0 setting at the start of the 1939 Fall Weiss Scenario seems totally wrong to me. Both countries started the war with much better aircraft than anyone else. The Luftwaffe should have no problem with the Polish and French flying crates, but instead they often end up with intercept losses and ineffective bomb runs. The two countries should start with str 11 airfleets. But that has nothing to do with the bid system, of course.

[ August 30, 2003, 03:09 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[zappsweden]

The ideas seems bad to me. If someone happens to be lucky in 1940 (getting L1 jets) then the battle of France may be decided upon luck. Battle of France is so crucial for Axis since they have less MPP than the combined nations of UK+France.

Yes, in the current system UK could get L1 jets due to cash handicap system but it will cost them atleist 250 buying the chit.

With a chit handicap system we would see L1 and sometimes L2 jets already before fall of Paris and too hazardous game play.

[ August 30, 2003, 09:12 AM: Message edited by: zappsweden ]

[JerseyJohn]

That's possible, yes.

This sort of thing isn't intended for competitive League Play and I'm not recommending it with regard to the Ladder. I'm suggesting it as something in less competitive games where the players are willing to do some experimenting.

Also to be considered, all the chits and MPPs theoretically start at Zero and the two players would fill in the figures as they go through the bidding process.

I've experimented with scenarios where one side or the other has L=1 jets from the start. Usually the opposing side also develops them quickly, but you're right, there are other times when it becomes lopsided. On the other hand I've seen games where the UK ends up with L=0 jets till comparatively late because it can't afford much, if any, research.

[ August 30, 2003, 04:49 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[zappsweden]

Ok, I got your point. It is just that, I grew tired of playing much because the historical Allied approach seems to be the worst approach.

What I mean is, UK fighting heavy in France turns out to be a sea-lion helper and also an Axis experience machine accelerator.

When gambits become the mainstrem strategy and the conventional ones become obselete the game turns into a chess game i.e millions of opening variation where one wrong step often cost you the game. I like tactical front-line moves deciding wars, not strategy invasion chess moves.

LC gambit, Italy gambit, Rambo Rome invasion, Norway gambit, Spain gambit are desperate cries for help since UK has thin economy to say the leist and that neutral countries are the richdom of the game.

[ August 30, 2003, 07:58 AM: Message edited by: zappsweden ]

[pzgndr]

Has anyone experimented with using IT levels for bidding? Giving USA/USSR +1, +2 or +3 in IT would provide the Allies with additional long-term MPPs without that huge at-start bonus. I'm curious where the balance point might be.

[Amona]

Based on the situation of an Axis-bias in the original Fall Weiss, the bidding is used to balance the game, or, to put it easy, make Allies stronger.

From a systematic point of view, I think it wrong to toy with 100 MPP there and 1 chit there.

To really test things out, I would start some games with Allies massively strengthened, like in the game I have with JerseyJohn (see our AAR) or even more.

What about 250 MPP UK, 1000 US, 2000 USSR.

AND 6 free chits for USSR and 10 for USA.

Test this out, and afterwards, if you see now it favors Allies too much, we can cut back a bit and arrive finally at a point where the quality of the player and indiviual tactical/operative decisions decide the game.

Most important for me is fun, and its not funny if the game is decided early on. It should be decided in 1942/43/44, not even before Barbarossa starts and US is in.

For this reasons, I prefer to strengthen USSR and especially US massively.

As is discussed in other treads, the role of USA should be much bigger than it is.

[zappsweden]

Bill, I think giving USA and Russia IT is a very good idea. Though, UK should not get any IT because it would only benefit Axis due to catch-up rules.

I think IT L4 for USA and Russia could be good. It would force axis to buy chits into IT too and give the Allies some crucial turns of MPP advantage until Axis catches up.

[ August 30, 2003, 12:19 PM: Message edited by: zappsweden ]