Game Issue: Vichy France/Fall of France

[BriantheWise]

I think there is something kind of funky with the Fall of France/Vichy French rules. Waltero mentioned one thing, and I'd like to bring up another (though I'm sure it's been mentioned before).

1) Waltero managed to snag the French colonies before France fell, and then lost them to Vichy after France fell. He also lost the units that were in those colonies. I guess I can see losing the colonies, sort of, from a historical standpoint. But I also know that Italy did covet Algeria/Tunisia, and if France had lost that colony at least, I don't think Germany would have taken it away from Italy and given it back to Vichy.

I also don't think that Italy should lose it's units. That's kind of buggy. In my opinion.

2) I just don't get how (or why) the French can lost their whole fleet and then get two more fleets as Vichy. The french navy really wasn't That big. At least, I don't think it was. I'd appreciate some opinions on that. I would think that maybe they should at best be half strength, if the French fleet is sunk. (Similarly, if the Allies take the corp out of Algeria, I think maybe as Vichy, it should at best reappear at half strength).

These comments are only meant as suggestions to (possibly) improve what is already an excellent game (This game will stay on my hard drive forever. Speaking of which, if I buy another copy of the game today, does it come patched to 1.06?)

[JerseyJohn]

BriantheWise

Glad you started this. I rationalize the fleet thing as a reshuffling of surviving ships to Vichy ports. For example, one of their BBs escaped from Mers El Kabir and was later scuttled in Toulon (what a fighting record!) when the Germans entered.

I'm surprised the Axis player hasn't got the option of not granting a semi-independant Vichy as in Clash of Steel.

Like you, I can live with it as is, but mentioning the quirks is always good.

[ December 23, 2002, 11:16 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[BriantheWise]

Thank you JerseyJohn

(You know, I only started with the nickname of BriantheWise to be a little obnoxious (in a fun sort of way) but obviously, I've been outclassed by a true master of obnoxiousness (can't remember the name right now).

I've noticed in your posts, that you know alot of history, more even, than me, the most wise.

So, drag from your archives and let me ask you...

During the war, what did the French navy do, and after they surrendered, what happened to the French navy? I know some of them sailed to Algeria, there to stay, until the whole Invasion of Africa by the US.

[General Billote]

I concur....These rules are way out of wack....I wan't more Troops, I want more Tanks, I want planes and Aircraft carriers...

And for those Vichy Traitors....not one Lousy Corp.

But seriously while we're sorta on the subject. It bothers me that the Free French troops don't benefit from Tech gains in AT Weapons. French troops are supplied by the British so this makes no sense to me. I'm not saying the French should benefit from any other Tech, just the ground troops. There is no reason why French Armies should be obsolete by the end of the war. It's not historical. In reality the Free French were much better equipped and trained by the time France was liberated than they were when war broke out.

[BriantheWise]

I kind of agree with you on this, Corporal Billote. The Free French get no tech gains (including the run away air fleet). The canadians get no tech gains. The U.S. get no tech gains from the British.

The game is excellent, but these things are like itches that you just can scratch.

[Logan Hartke]

Even the Italians should benefit a bit from the Germans as they were equipped with Tigers and PzKpfw IIIs during stages in the war. I also had that problem with the Axis minor allies. I just use them for garrison work in France because they're of no use to me on the Russian Front.

Logan Hartke

[Canuck_para]

I can live with the Italians and German minors not getting equal tech lvls with the Germans but maybe a couple points behind for free.

Now the fact the Canadians (and Free French) never get better bugs me. They were equipped the exact same as the Brits (and later US) and this should be reflected.

As for Vichy I would have like to see the Vichy/No Vichy option in the game.

[Logan Hartke]

Originally posted by Canuck_para:

I can live with the Italians and German minors not getting equal tech lvls with the Germans but maybe a couple points behind for free.

Now that's not a bad idea.

Logan Hartke

[BriantheWise]

Mr. Canuck,

With regards to a vichy/no vichy option, how would this work? I kind of like the idea, if I'm following you, but I could be off.

If Vichy is off, does this mean that France fights on, even after the capital falls, and the capital moves south (first to Marseille, and then later, after that is taken to Algiers?) (I assume that the Germans would still get the plunder). Or does it mean that once France falls, Germany gets all of it, colonies included (with or without troops). Or does it mean that Continental France should be conquered in total, but the colonies go neutral separately?

If the colonies do go neatral separately, does invading them increase war readiness of the US and Russia?

I think you've raised a can of worms here, but it's an interesting can of worms.

let's play! IP! now!

[General Billote]

Interesting, There seems to be some concensus on this issue. I also agree with those who have said ( on other threads) that Canadian Units should function as "under command" when in range of a British HQ.

Perhaps the Vichy issue could be an option. If the Axis is using the option then when France falls they are asked a question about whether to create Vichy France. If the Axis annexes all of France they should definately be penalized with Eastern European War entry but what should happen to Vichy Armies and Navies? Do they just disappear?

[ December 21, 2002, 07:09 PM: Message edited by: General Billote ]

[Lance Runolfsson]

Wild guess but possibly the establishment of Vichy was a precondition made by the French for surrendering. The option should maybe not be for Vichy or no Vichy it should be for accepting surrender or not. If surrender is not accepted no Vichy But there is no reason not to accept the surrender under these circumstances. Another point related to this discussion is what should happen when anyone surrenders. For instance the Dutch did not in effect surrender Queen Willamina was spirited off to London to establish a government in exile which still controlled the Dutch East Indies until they were over run by the Japanese. Similar may have happened with other countries but I can't say for sure. Merchant Marine and Naval elements from all of the over run minors did operate under RN control after their homes were occupied. Ground troops as well, the Poles contributed significant ground troop manpower to the British after having served with the French before the fall of France all minors provided air crew as well. So it might easily be argued that the Brits should get a small amount of "plunder" as the minors fall to Germany:^)

[ December 22, 2002, 02:40 AM: Message edited by: Lance Runolfsson ]

[Canuck_para]

Originally posted by BriantheWise:

Mr. Canuck,

With regards to a vichy/no vichy option, how would this work? I kind of like the idea, if I'm following you, but I could be off.

If Vichy is off, does this mean that France fights on, even after the capital falls, and the capital moves south (first to Marseille, and then later, after that is taken to Algiers?) (I assume that the Germans would still get the plunder). Or does it mean that once France falls, Germany gets all of it, colonies included (with or without troops). Or does it mean that Continental France should be conquered in total, but the colonies go neutral separately?

If the colonies do go neatral separately, does invading them increase war readiness of the US and Russia?

I think you've raised a can of worms here, but it's an interesting can of worms.

let's play! IP! now!

Yes, what I mean is if the Germans turn down Vichy then then the French fight on. When all of France is taken the Colonies have a random roll which mean some become Free French while others become Neutral.

[JerseyJohn]

Canuck_para

"Yes, what I mean is if the Germans turn down Vichy then then the French fight on. When all of France is taken the Colonies have a random roll which mean some become Free French while others become Neutral."

A combination of how it was handled in a pair of DOS games: Clash of Steel and HICOM . In Clash you could install a Vichy Govt on prompt or choose to keep up the invasion and grab it all. In HICOM France just fell although there was no indication on the map that there was a Vichy state and the Axis was free to cross it's nonexistant borders at will. Morocco, Algeria, Tunesia and Syria each went either one way or the other.

[ December 22, 2002, 04:53 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Ancient One]

Originally posted by Canuck_para:

Yes, what I mean is if the Germans turn down Vichy then then the French fight on. When all of France is taken the Colonies have a random roll which mean some become Free French while others become Neutral.

I disagree. If the Germans turn down Vichy, the colonies should always remain in the war.

[wlweir]

Originally posted by BriantheWise:

Thank you JerseyJohn

During the war, what did the French navy do, and after they surrendered, what happened to the French navy? I know some of them sailed to Algeria, there to stay, until the whole Invasion of Africa by the US.

Did not the British attack elements of the French Navy at anchor in North Africa so that they would not fall into axis hands?

[JerseyJohn]

BriantheWise

Sorry about taking so long to respond to your entry -- and thanks for the compliment oh most wise .

"If it isn't asking too much, my friends and I would like to ask a few favors of BriantheWise-- we mean, if he's in and isn't too busy of course."

When France surrendered one squadron in the Eastern Med sailing with the British, anchord their own ships and rigged them with explosives declaring themselves neutral. I believe they did this in Alexandria. At anyrate the British controlled the port and didn't bother the vessels, all of which survived the war.

wlweir -- exactly right.

Another squadron containing some of the largest French Battleships was anchored at Mirs el Kabir and also declared itself neutral. It was this squadron that the British attacked, after inviting them to leave port and join the British fleet, which, among other battlewagons, included the warhorse Rodney with it's nine 16" guns. The French didn't and the anchored ships never stood a prayer. Most were sunk with great loss of life. Within the British fleet there was great sadness over the slaughter and nobody considered it a victory but rather a necessity.

Incredibly Vichy France did not declare war on Britain, which is why it baffles me that so many people keep referring to it as an Axis nation -- come on already, what country on earth would have stood for that and said they were still neutral -- needless to say, the Germans were in disbelief and rightfully so.

One French BB escaped, I'm not certain of it's name but I beielve it was either the Stassbourg or the Dunkurque (easy enough to look up if anyone is interested in the gritty details!). At sea it was torpedoed a few days later and finally limped into Toulon, where it was later scuttled by it's crew as the Germans moved into Vichy territory in response to Operation Torch .

The Strasbourg, Dunquirke's sister ship. They were designed in similar fasion to the Rodney/Nelson class, all main guns forward, but with lighter guns and greater speed.

Other French squadrons sat out the war in the Caribean and other far flung locations. At least one French Aircraft carrier was interned in the Western Hemisphere. Again, I can't remember the name of the ship nor it's location but it would be easy to look up.

By way of trivia there's an early wartime espionage movie starring Humphrey Bogard and I believe Lauren B-- his future wife, I can't remember how to spell her name -- with Walter Brenon along as a ship's mate, all taking place in that very port with the aircraft carrier as a backdrop. Some nonsense about this colony going Vichy -- in which case the U. S. would have had a squadron blocading it in a matter of hours. If anyone knows the name of the movie I'd like very much to see the title.

A few French ships went over to the British but the majority of their largest did not. None ever went over to either Germany or Italy. Of even greater value to the Italians would have been the large amounts of supply stocks and spare parts also locked up in the French Mediteranean ports -- the Italians lacked those items from the start, along with naval fuei oil.

BriantheWise as is obvious from this entry there are many gaps in my memory (the result of enjoying the sixties!) so I can't help you in recalling the name of that slightly obnoxious fellow that everyone used to enjoy persecuting.

[ December 23, 2002, 09:44 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Hubert Cater]

Originally posted by BriantheWise:

1) Waltero managed to snag the French colonies before France fell, and then lost them to Vichy after France fell. He also lost the units that were in those colonies. I also don't think that Italy should lose it's units. That's kind of buggy. In my opinion.

As far as I know, based on previously implemented corrections to the game, Axis units trapped in Vichy once France surrenders do not dissapear, they should be automatically moved to the nearest Axis city that is land connected to the respective Vichy territory or in the worst case back to Italy itself. If anyone can recreate a repeatable situation where Italian units *dissapear* in this situation, please send me the saved files and I will take a look.

2) I just don't get how (or why) the French can lost their whole fleet and then get two more fleets as Vichy.

Ok it's been a while but from memory... the at start fleet for France represents elements of their active navy during 1939/1940.

For the Vichy Fleet I went with ships that played active roles during either the Torch landings or that were scuttled byt the French once the Axis moved in to Vichy. Jean Bart was still under construction and located in North Africa where it was imobilized by the US naval guns during the landings, and the Suffren was scuttled by Vichy at Toulon when Germany took over the rest of France.

These comments are only meant as suggestions to (possibly) improve what is already an excellent game (This game will stay on my hard drive forever. Speaking of which, if I buy another copy of the game today, does it come patched to 1.06?)

Great! At the moment if you purchase SC it still comes as v1.0

Hubert