SC2 Suggestion: Stockpiles

[GroupNorth]

This is a very simple concept that could be implemented in a streamlined game like SC.

Stockpiles, in this abstract, constitute large concentrations of fuel and ammo (and various miscellaneous items regarded as 'equipment'). They are not Industrial Points, but the two are related somewhat.

1. At the start of the game, each belligerent has an abstract national pool of unassigned stockpiles. For instance, Germany in 1939 had '51' surplus stockpiles, enough for a highly intense war (using their new Panzers and Stukas) but lasting only for about 6 months.

2. Every unit, if not strengthened with extra stockpiles, is considered to be at 'normal' readiness. Such a unit, if not over-strengthened, cannot perform much offensive action.

3. Before each operational turn, stockpiles are 'allocated' to select units which will supposedly launch major actions. For instance, when the Germans invaded France and the Low Countries, they over-strengthened key units. This gave various infantry and armour units more 'action points' and more opportunities to intensify their thrusts. Realistically it allowed for river crossing, forest penetration, outflanking, encirclement, and intense, intricate attacks and barrages.

4. Nazi Germany gambled almost all their national stockpiles within a short period (2-3 game turns?), placing them in a focused areas, in order to knock out the Allies.

Whereas the Allies, on the defensive, spread their stockpiles quite evenly to units from the Maginot to Holland. Plus the Allies did not expect a very short campaign, so many stockpiles are still considered unallocated. These Allied units were also considered to be somewhat 'Confused', but I'll talk about that later.

I have to figure out the basics of the rules.

1. Each active unit (corp, army, tank, airfleet, etc) automatically drains 1 stockpile point. The computer AI drains these from the pool every turn. If the unit can't get the minimum amount of 1, then it really suffers in terms of action points, strength, etc.. and it cannot attack or move far, or move much at all.

2. Once the AI allocates minimum stockpiles, excess stockpiles are used to overstrengthen selected units. This is done by the player. Only land units can be overstrengthened, and the extra stockpile number can never be more than 2.

3. Air and sea units, while they cannot be overstrengthened, still require a higher number of minimum stockpiles compared to land units.

4. A nation's economy produces an arbitrary 'x' number of stockpiles, each turn, in addition to Industrial Points. For instance, Germany produces 285 Industrial Points and 17 Stockpiles per turn. IPs can be converted to extra Stockpiles. Or longterm investment of IPs permanently raises the monthly income of Stockpiles (i.e. an investment of 50 IPs increases Stockpile production by 1 per month).

5. A conquered nation is looted of Stockpiles. Germany of course looted France of many stockpiles which were used in the Balkans and Russia. The Allies loot half as many.

6. Strategic Bombing can destroy IPs, stockpiles, or a combination thereof.

7. Submarine warfare and maritime air superiority has the same effect, although the emphasis is more on stockpiles.

8. A player may intervene in the AI's automatic of allocation of minimum stockpiles. He can designate units as being garrisoned (static and nonintensive). These units are considered only semi-active, and drain zero stockpiles. As such, they cannot move or attack.

9. Land and air units ONLY with HQs can be over-strengthened. Naval units are exempt from this rule.

Here's my flying guess of how much it costs to 'normally' supply eachrespective unit. The AI would do this, and stockpile deficits would be randomly meted to unlucky units:

1. Corps, Engineer: requires 2 points

2. Army, Airborne: 3 points

3. Armour, Airfleet, Strategic Bomber: 4 points

Many Italian, Polish, Spanish, Yugoslav, and Russian regulars would be considered to have 1 or even 0 points at times in the game. While, in their zenith, the Germans and the Anglo-Americans occasionally overstrengthened many units by as much as 2 points.

I'll work on this idea more. It approximates real logistics without being too cerebral.

[ev]

I very much like you idea.

Of course, the challenge is to implement this idea in a simple and elegant way ...just like so many other things in this game.

It is important to keep it simple; first for the sake of the AI, and also so the player can remain focussed in the grand strategic focus of the game.

[GroupNorth]

Thanks, you are right. Simplicity is important. Perhaps the term 'stockpiles' can be traded in for the more generic 'supplies'.

SC does a nice job of abstracting many of these concerns. However, it would also be cool to see an undersupplied Italian navy, for instance. Or a highly supplied 8th Army. Or wolfpacks that sink 100,000 tonnes of munitions, fuel, etc..

We've only scratched the surface really, and I'm surprised there hasn't been more suggestions for SCII.

[JerseyJohn]

GroupNorth

I may be off the mark from your ideas, but --

Perhaps some sort of national or regional stockpile hex.

Germany salvaged enough fuel and miscellaneous booty from France to get them through the first year or so in Russia.

In North Africa, there was supposed to be an attack on Malta to take the place and end the supply problems, but Rommel captured enough fuel and other goods at Tobruk to push his decision in a different direction, a dash to Alexandria and the Suez, making Malta inconsequential. Unfortunately he had the operation cancelled so the paratroopers and other troops could be incorporated into his main force.

Perhaps some allowance to enhance the quantity of supplies in an area for a given amount of time. In North Africa, for example, a captured stockpile might double the number of hexes over which supplies can be effectively received from it's most distant source. For example, from Tobruk east as in the El Alemain instance.

In desperation, the German 1944 Ardennes Offensive was built around the capture of American stockpiles.

These three cases illustrate the validity of your concept.

I would set it up so they could be captured (minus some damage) with the Soviet Union being the only exception as per the effectiveness of it's Scorched Earth policy.

[ January 03, 2003, 12:11 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Augustus]

Howdy:

I like your idea. I'd like to add the following. Units that are reinforced via a stockpiles reserve (I like the term 'supplies' better) should be forced to wait out a turn or two before becoming operational once more. Sort of the like a production spiral in the old SSI "War in the West" game board from the '80's. Build 'em up, but make 'em wait.

Cheers

[Valadictum]

Perhaps having damaged units within range of a regional stockpile might be necessary to reinforce them to full strength, or to increase units to the next level from results of research. This might make players rotate units in the front line more efficiently.

If regional stockpiles are constructable units then some elements of the HQ unit should perhaps be reduced or compensated for in another way? Too much cross over?

[waltero]

I think a unit should not be able to move directly from 31,8 to 32,8 (denmark)

as well 54,36 to 53,35

46,27 46,26

It just aint right!

navel supply needs to be thought out :confused:

The transport in port and then going out to sea and unload out of port is glitch.

As well as AIR on a river hex! why should thay be half attack?

yes I hate to see A one factor unit, being controlled by my HQ on my turn :mad: ( I could see if it was not my turn and for defence) but when it is my turn I would like to supply my full strenth units for attack!

that is all for now. got to go!

[Shaka of Carthage]

SC already handles what you are talking about since your stockpile and SC supplies are the same. The enhancement you are talking about is making a Mobile Supply unit, that would increase the readiness % of a unit, beyond 100%. And if I understand correctly, you are asking for a unit that has a readiness that exceeds normal (ie 100%) to be able to gain additional action points.

Your system implies that there is not sufficient transport to supply all units... so all units (in SC terms) have a lowered readiness (so they cannot perform much offensive action) that if you want them to conduct offensive actions, you have to take this supply unit and distribute additonal supplies to them (allowing them to obtain a readiness of 100%).

It approximates real logistics without being too cerebral.

What we have approximates real logistics. You are basically asking for the ability to pump a units readiness beyond 100%.

At the Grand Strategy scale we are at, Army and Theater commanders, while concerned about logistics, are not concerned about the level of minutia you are asking for. What you are asking for is more of an Operational concern.

[pzgndr]

There's something about units and HQs not moving that enhances their supply efficiency. This abstractly simulates supply stockpiling during pauses and improves combat performance for deliberate attacks.

Oftentimes you continue to push your units onward and may not notice this effect, but it's there.

[Shaka of Carthage]

Bill Macon

There's something about units and HQs not moving that enhances their supply efficiency. This abstractly simulates supply stockpiling during pauses and improves combat performance for deliberate attacks

Are you sure? Do you have to have a HQ for the effect to take place? The manual makes a distinction between a stationary attack and a blitzkrieg attack, but I had no idea that it handled the difference by supply efficiency. Very subtle of Hubert.

[pzgndr]

Movement affects the supply of any unit, including HQs, which in turn affects readiness and combat. So you could have seperate or combined effects when you have units and HQs, depending on who moves or not.

Hubert could explain it better. Bottom line is that stationary units accrue readiness benefits. Adding some additional stockpile effect to this may be unnecessary.

[Hubert Cater]

Originally posted by waltero:

As well as AIR on a river hex! why should thay be half attack?

Air is actually excluded from this rule

Hubert

[Hubert Cater]

Originally posted by Bill Macon:

Movement affects the supply of any unit, including HQs, which in turn affects readiness and combat. So you could have seperate or combined effects when you have units and HQs, depending on who moves or not.

Hubert could explain it better. Bottom line is that stationary units accrue readiness benefits. Adding some additional stockpile effect to this may be unnecessary.

The idea with the HQ was to have it function partially as a supply wagon on top of the standard leadership attachment for units under it's command. Thus you can gain supply from a city as well as an HQ. Units that are attached to an HQ do have the possibility of a readiness above 100% depending on the experience of the HQ, and if they are in good supply etc. Basically the experience of the HQ is trickled down to units under it's command as a 'combat morale bonus'.

There is no inherent benefit setup by keeping units stationary in terms of readiness, but entrenchment can go up etc., although in situations on the eastern front where as the Germans advance and capture Soviet cities there could be a situation where the Axis overrun their supply. In this case you may find yourself better off waiting for the value of the recently captured city to build up from 0, or to position an HQ so that it max's its supply from another location in turn giving your units greater supply than it would acheive from the recently captured city. So in this case there would definitly be a benefit as Bill suggested from sitting tight to increase readiness before continuing forward.

Not sure if this satisfies the idea of stockpiles entirely, but just wanted to expand on the functionality of HQ's.

Hubert

[JerseyJohn]

Hubert

Thanks for providing some great info.

Is the supply overrunning incremtally more likely or higher as the Germans move farther into the Soviet Union?

Also, does it make any difference if a scorched city is occupied by a regular ground/air unit or an HQ?

[Hubert Cater]

An HQ has to be at least within 10 hexes of a 10 supply value city or other HQ to be at its maximum supply giving value, so the supply overrunning can occur if you drive too far east too quickly. In this case units may be drawing supply from either a low valued city or a low supply giving HQ. So when this happens it is sometimes best to wait a bit for the recently captured Soviet city to rebuild to its max = 5 or to chain another HQ in your supply lines to get a higher max.

Hubert