Paratroopers?

[aku_djinn]

My apologies if this was already covered. I was wondering why there are no paratroopers in the game? I think Germany should start with (or allow to be purchased quickly) 1 corps of paratroopers.

[Norse]

Originally posted by aku_djinn30:

My apologies if this was already covered. I was wondering why there are no paratroopers in the game? I think Germany should start with (or allow to be purchased quickly) 1 corps of paratroopers.

When Germany invaded Norway, then they launched paratroopers. But you know how many they used? 1500! The smallest unit in the game is a corps, and it is 50.000 men. So you can expect that if you launch an invasion of Norway, then the 1500 paratroopers are dropped there as well and secures your flanks.

This topic have been discussed in debth, and it's mostly agreed (though alot still disagree ) that paratroop units are too small for this game.

~Norse~

[Carl G. E. von Mannerheim]

I agree, paratroopers would really only be used twice in the game if using an historical setup. Crete, MarketGarden.

[Old Patch]

Missed a few there, CvM:

*Overlord was a three division drop.

*There was a large allied drop along the Rhine somwhere in early 1945 (the name of which escapes me at the moment).

*The Soviets used several drops in advance of an offensive but very short (10 miles away, less?).

*Sicily was multi-division drop as well.

*Eban Emal in Belgium (of course that was maybe a battalion).

[Carl G. E. von Mannerheim]

But i mean on a corps level. Pehaps DDAY, but other than that..

[Old Patch]

Nope. If you get Crete in there (two divisons) then you have to allow Sicily (two divisions), and the last Allied drop (whose name escapes me) which IIRC was the US 17th airborne and the British 1st.

[Canuck_para]

Originally posted by Old Patch:

Nope. If you get Crete in there (two divisons) then you have to allow Sicily (two divisions), and the last Allied drop (whose name escapes me) which IIRC was the US 17th airborne and the British 1st.

Operation Varsity (Rhine Crossing) had 14 000 airborne troops including US 17 Airborne Div and 6th Brit AB Div and of course 1 Canadian Parachute Battalion.

[Old Patch]

Thanks! Operation Varsity - for some reason I was stuck on Operation Galvanic and I knew that wasn't right.

Do you have any info on Soviet airdrops? I know at the start of the war they had a HUGE para force 3-5 CORPS of troops.

[Guest Mike]

The soviets made several very large para drops - off hand I can't thik of any except Korsun Pocket, but as was pointed out above they weern't "that far" in front of the main line.

I know there's some info about on them so I'll see what I can find.

[husky65]

Originally posted by Carl Von Mannerheim:

I agree, paratroopers would really only be used twice in the game if using an historical setup. Crete, MarketGarden.

Crete only used around 13000 airborne (inc gliders) troops, the rest were airlanded or went up the beach (the 13000 did not go in one lift).

Market Garden used around 35,000 airborne (inc gliders) and did not go in one lift.

In neither case (at this scale) could you use a corps to represent them.

[Straha]

I think we could make an exception to the "at least corps-sized"- rule with respect to paratroopers, though, as long as every country may only maintain *one* (multi division) airborne unit at any given time. This would, on the one hand, prevent ridiculous amassing of airborne units, and on the other hand allow for a new type of "special" operation in the game, adding even more depths (and fun) to it.

Straha

[Augustus]

An idea...if there are not to be any paratroopers, then maybe BOTH the Axis and Allies (read the player and the AI) could start the game with, for example, three paratroop/fallschirm 'counters'. This 'counter' would be placed on the players main interface (the game screen), starting at three, and then at the beginning of each turn, the player (or the AI when its' the computers' turn) could decide if he/she wanted to use one of the the 'counters'. If the player elected to do so, the following could happen:

1. On the turn a player elects to use a paratroop 'counter', then that player would have his/her odds increased for either a.) a particular land unit that is engaged an amphib assault, b.) any land unit the player chooses can have its' attack odds increased regardless of amphib assault or not, or c.) have the players' overall attack strength increased for that turn only (hmmm...maybe not too practical).

2 After the player elects to use this 'counter', on the next turn the player may elect to do so again, but now he/she would only have two 'counters' left for the rest of the game, and so on until depleted.

Anyways, just a thought to introduce the effect of paradrop, without introducing the actual unit into the game.

Cheers

Augustus

[husky65]

Originally posted by Augustus:

Anyways, just a thought to introduce the effect of paradrop, without introducing the actual unit into the game.

At the 50 mile a hex, 1 week to 1 month a turn scale Paras do not make sense, this has been covered, repeatedly, in considerable depth.

So far nobody has given a historical example where Paras siezed a 50 mile area, nor have they given any credible way to provide the enemy with a way to strike the first waves of troops and the ongoing airlifts.

There seems to simply be a 'its cool and I want it' factor at work in spite of the fact that this is the wrong scale for such operations.

[Straha]

Originally posted by husky65:

SNIP

There seems to simply be a 'its cool and I want it' factor at work in spite of the fact that this is the wrong scale for such operations.

I won't even deny that. But then, do our naval units really cover a 50 miles hex? Many (if not all) features in a game involve a kind of trade off between realism and gameplay, and all I can say is that IMO a cautious implementation of a (limited) airborne feature would add to SC, and that's indeed why I want it. COS, for example, has shown how this can be done, even at this scale.

Straha

[Compassion]

Originally posted by husky65:

At the 50 mile a hex, 1 week to 1 month a turn scale Paras do not make sense, this has been covered, repeatedly, in considerable depth.

So far nobody has given a historical example where Paras siezed a 50 mile area, nor have they given any credible way to provide the enemy with a way to strike the first waves of troops and the ongoing airlifts.

So what? That's not really germane to Augustas' point, is it? He's talking about using some kind of airborne abstraction as a force multiplier which at this scale is exactly what airborne is. I think that he has an interesting idea, though I would say that there should be a cost for buying one of these chits.

[ August 08, 2002, 04:00 PM: Message edited by: Compassion ]

[Straha]

Originally posted by Compassion:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by husky65:

At the 50 mile a hex, 1 week to 1 month a turn scale Paras do not make sense, this has been covered, repeatedly, in considerable depth.

So far nobody has given a historical example where Paras siezed a 50 mile area, nor have they given any credible way to provide the enemy with a way to strike the first waves of troops and the ongoing airlifts.

So what? That's not really germane to Augustas' point, is it? He's talking about using some kind of airborne abstraction as a force multiplier which at this scale is exactly what airborne is. I think that he has an interesting idea, though I would say that there should be a cost for buying one of these chits.</font>

[husky65]

Originally posted by Straha:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by husky65:

SNIP

There seems to simply be a 'its cool and I want it' factor at work in spite of the fact that this is the wrong scale for such operations.

I won't even deny that. But then, do our naval units really cover a 50 miles hex? </font>

[husky65]

Originally posted by Compassion:

So what? That's not really germane to Augustas' point, is it? He's talking about using some kind of airborne abstraction as a force multiplier which at this scale is exactly what airborne is. I think that he has an interesting idea, though I would say that there should be a cost for buying one of these chits.

The problem is that his chit system adds complexity but nothing to the actual gameplay - how much will you spend to get a (realistic attack bonus) of about .2?

At this scale airborne ops are already abxtracted into the attacks.

[husky65]

Originally posted by Straha:

[The (one) paraunit in COS worked in a similar way as a combat modifier: after a preparation phase, it could *participate* in attacks up to three hexes away. It would then negate any terrain bonuses etc for the defender.

This too, is a bad idea - historically Paras are very vulnerable to bad terrain (see the drops in Normandy as one example) and do little to negate enemy terrain (see Market Garden as a classic example).

Nobody has given an example where they would work (that makes sense), yet suggestions for increasingly complex ways to implement Paras keep coming.

One of the big strengths of SC is its simplicity, why try to change that when you can't even justify the changes?

[Compassion]

Originally posted by Straha:

If I understood his suggestion correctly, then one does not have to buy them, but only a limited amount of those chits is available to every player.

RIght, though if something like this is done, it should be pay per view as it's damn expensive to raise a force that's capable of giving this kind of bonus for such a small number of men (relatively, of course). ALso not sure about them being one shot deals, either (perhaps a rehap period and charge for each chit owned?). But all in all, it's an interesting idea that might be worth exploring and didn't want a different approach discarded with the old, tired arguments.

I think to have a para-unit counter on the map has the advantage that you have to transfer it to the right place first. It is also vulnerable to attacks. While the chits could be used anywhere instantly and would not be in danger of being destroyed.

Interesting, though with Corps sized units as our base, the expenditure to move a few thousand men is negligable so I'm not sure it adds much... WOuld this on screen unit be able to participate in ground combat if offered even thoiugh it's not being para'ed in?

[Compassion]

Originally posted by husky65:

The problem is that his chit system adds complexity but nothing to the actual gameplay - how much will you spend to get a (realistic attack bonus) of about .2

I don't see how this adds enough complexity to matter... and if it means that much to users, Hubert might just be paying attention (see the dead body wars during CM's developemnt).

As to your question about what kind of attack bonus would I ask for? Depends. The true value of these troops isn't in their combat value (at least not when we are throwing Corps and above level troops around), but in reductions in readiness (in SC terms). Generally sowing confusion where the enemy needs to be in control. THat's the whole point

At this scale airborne ops are already abxtracted into the attacks.

That's an assumption on you part. The only thing that Hubert has said (that I remember) was that he couldn't get them into the game.

[husky65]

Originally posted by Compassion:

I don't see how this adds enough complexity to matter...

Because it needs to be programmed, tested and play balanced, then explained (and justified) to the user.

and if it means that much to users, Hubert might just be paying attention (see the dead body wars during CM's developemnt).

But it doesn't mean that much to users, in total there is about 4 people (on this forum) asking for Paras - there is no great groundswell of disgruntled users demanding this vital feature.

As to your question about what kind of attack bonus would I ask for? Depends.

So you are demanding a feature be put in and you can't even define what you want it to do?

The true value of these troops isn't in their combat value (at least not when we are throwing Corps and above level troops around), but in reductions in readiness (in SC terms). Generally sowing confusion where the enemy needs to be in control. THat's the whole point

Once again we run into the fact that Paras don't do that, at the scale we are talking about there are many smaller garrison units (not depicted by counters) that tend to nullify such dashing 'lets sieze Arnhem by air' ideas.

"At this scale airborne ops are already abxtracted into the attacks."

That's an assumption on you part. The only thing that Hubert has said (that I remember) was that he couldn't get them into the game.

Certainly, but its a reasonable assumption - Paras seize objectives, not areas - they tend to do so relatively close to the front line (so as to facilitate relief ops).

The sorts of features seized (the classic bridges, GTIs etc) are not on the map at this scale and the attacks are on an army scale and the hexes are 50 miles across.

If you want Paras, they are already there - if you want to add 50,000 man airborne armies you are going to need to support your case and then show how it actually makes the game better.

[ August 08, 2002, 07:50 PM: Message edited by: husky65 ]

[husky65]

Originally posted by husky65:

Double Post, sorry

[ August 08, 2002, 07:49 PM: Message edited by: husky65 ]

[Straha]

Originally posted by husky65:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Straha:

[The (one) paraunit in COS worked in a similar way as a combat modifier: after a preparation phase, it could *participate* in attacks up to three hexes away. It would then negate any terrain bonuses etc for the defender.

This too, is a bad idea - historically Paras are very vulnerable to bad terrain (see the drops in Normandy as one example) and do little to negate enemy terrain (see Market Garden as a classic example).

SNIP</font>

[Straha]

Originally posted by Compassion:

SNIP WOuld this on screen unit be able to participate in ground combat if offered even thoiugh it's not being para'ed in?

Yes, the (single) paraunit in COS could not only be attacked and overrun normally on ground (it was very vulnerable, especially if attacked in the preparation phase), it also could be used to attack like a normal (weak) corps (without the preparation turn). But, of course, this amounted to wasting a precious unit, so one would do this only in very special circumstances (like an almost destroyed enemy armygroup standing nearby which would recover if not eliminated *now* at all costs).

Straha