Unit size - Russian OOB

[Kuniworth]

Referring to the manual the following unit sizes are used;

corps; 40-60,000 men

army; 100,000 men

Tank unit; Not said but I guess 600-1000(4 pz divisions)

Airfleets; Not mentioned but my guess is 500-700

However lets say the germans throw the regular Barbarossa against the russians. Due to the low count on armies the german troops will be counted as barely 1,5 million men in the SC 1941 scenario. Thats half the size of the historical invasion force.

The russians though get the real problem out of this. They start with 2 tank groups, 6 corps, 3 airfleets and 11 armies. Lets do some math - that will give them approxamately 1,460 000 men with maximum 2000 tanks and 2100 airplanes. They get 1200 MMP which gets them a further 660,000 if buyin corps for the money or 500,000 if buyin armies.

This is way to low.

Historically the russians mustered a lot more troops in june, 1941. For their western war 4,700 000 million men could be assembled but only 2,5 million men at the border and western USSR. The airforce counted 1350 bombers(of which 500 modern) with almost 2000 old fighters and 800 recon planes. When it comes to tanks USSR as you know had a lot of them. But lets talk about modern tanks, they had 867 t-34:s and 508 KV-1:s. That gives them 1500 tanks.

The conclusion of this is that Russia is way underbalanced when attacked in SC. Lets compare;

Historically compared to SC

tanks 1500 or more, in game 2 tank groups(its ok)

Airforce 4000, in game 3 airfleets - (its ok)

Infantry 2,5 million, in game 11 armies and 6 corps(too low)

So as I see this armies should be counted higher for instance 250,000 men that would make figures accurate. But then we would have to underpower the setup in Fall weiss. Cause we want it as historically correct as possible dont we?

So my suggestion;

Russian infantry strenght is now 1,460 000. I want that figure increased to match 2,5 million men in 1941. I dont see this as a problem for the OOB if russians get that extra million, on the contrary the OOB today is lackin a lot in case of army names and positions. Givin them 10 extra corps(weak, reduced in strenght points) is not posssible. So we will have to give them MMP instead to rise the number to historical levels.

So time for math;

1,46 million russians + 1200 MMP = 2 million soldiers. 2,7 million are missin.

But that will be too much for the game balance and not take into account the low efficency of the red army. So lets raise it up to 2,5 million men instead, as that is what they actually had in western Russia. Thats 500,000 men which we will be able to get by buyin either 10 corps or 5 armies. Thats about 1200 MMP more.

CONCLUSION;

Red army should get 2400 MMP in 1941. This should be way lower if Russia joins the war or is attacked in earlier years. Those figures should be connected to the historical red army OOB in 1939 and 1940.

[ January 12, 2003, 10:42 PM: Message edited by: Kuniworth ]

[JerseyJohn]

Kuniworth

Terrific.

Also confusing is the fact Russian unit sizes are misleading. Armies were usually corps size and corps were often oversized divisions. A much larger % of troops in Soviet Units were actual combatants than in Western units, fewer support and administrative personnel and often they also served as combatants when the action started.

[Kuniworth]

You are absolutely right.

The problem with SC is that it will develop into routine, for example as the axis you must do certain things each turn and you will win. This is the "axis & allies syndrom" and can be bad in the long run because game become boring.

So as it stands now it´s no doubt that axis are way to strong in 1939-scenario. I think this solution would even things out a bit. Because a player always use more troops to attack russia than the german OOB in the 1941 scenario. The game therefore favors the axis. This setup will give Russia a fighting chance as they historically had.

[ January 12, 2003, 10:39 PM: Message edited by: Kuniworth ]

[Liam]

Actually, how many soldiers were combatants? As far as I know many more were carrying out maintenance and "support roles", in the motor pool, medics, etc... 100k of actual frontline trained troopers is probably not far off. Do we consider the other people? One fighter aircraft takes how large a crew 24-7 to keep regular sortis up?

[JerseyJohn]

Liam

Yes, as I say that's the Western model. The German army tended to have fewer and fewer support personnel as the war went on and the Soviet, being the least based in technology and mobilization had comparatively few purely support personnel, even in their tank units.

The lack of support personnel is much of the reason it took so long for the Soviets to follow up on initial gains. The front line troops had to stop and wait for horsedrawn wagons to catch up with them. As the Germans had installed a different guage to the Railroad tracks rolling stock was often useless till labor teams moved through adjusting them back to their original wider setting.

[Liam]

Well, Germany being a country of a fair population can only pool and outfit so many combatants. Russia always had too many, you're right! Though again, on grand scale. Technology hadn't come so far in WW2 to make them obsolete beyond winning! I wonder how the Japanese military would compete on this playground!

I assume the game is 1/3 1/2 aprox. scale? Many large cities aren't represented on the map. Perhaps they figured making it much larger THOUGH I would like it would be too high of maintenance though the Navies in this game have way too much a field day... In real life there was much more inland to hide out in.

[JerseyJohn]

I don't know how wide each hex is in miles but it must be over fifty, perhaps seventy five, and even a battleship could only hurl shells 15 to 20. Though they'd rarely do it past the water's edge as they'd be shooting blind.

I'd like to see another city with a port placed in southern England, perhaps in Cornwall. It would raise Brit's MPPs and, if the Germans launch Sea Lion they'd have an objective other than London.

[ January 13, 2003, 04:51 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Liam]

trying to burn a flu and lots of time off! Lordy, noone to play on-line tonight. Log onto EE...

England historically should have Coventry, Liverpool, Manchester, London and you're right some sort of more direct port seeing as she is the #1 naval might in the World<well do no know how they'd fair against Japan>. Where are Indian, African Colonies, Austriala/New Zealand/Oceanic MPPs?

There should be a pipeline with more income. Many soldiers that served in England were from South Africa...and other CommonWealth Nations

[General von Paulus]

I've always thought that the port of Plymouth (in Devon, but near Cornwall) or Portsmouth (along the south coast) should be present. It was from the south coast that the D-Day landings were launched, and yes, it would give Sealion an extra target other than London.

[SeaWolf_48]

You have uncovered the same problem that I have found with the game. There are too few units represented at the beginning of each senario. Germany had more Bombers than any other country in the World in 1940, but how many are in SC! Britain had the largest Navy in the World but how many units are in SC! Russia has way to few units at the start of Barbarrosa. I hope that SC2 will be more historic.

It is to hard to develop different units because of the system in the game. Why limit the research points to ten? America, Britain and Germany researched all the catagories in the game and a whole lot more, maybe US, USSR, UK and Third Reich should have 14 points. Each major had updated all of their Air Forces, Navies and Land Units, not one over the other like the game makes you do. Every catagory should be able to increase.

SC does have the best AI of any game I've played, I hope that the units will represent the Major belligerents of WWII.

[ January 13, 2003, 12:56 PM: Message edited by: SeaWolf_48 ]