Readiness: In a Prop Engine

[Liam]

Wouldn't it be nice if we expanded the roles of a bomber/fighter to give something back not just take away. We've already discussed the removal of readiness by the use of bombing, either by fighters or bombers. Why not add in the original ability to drop in supplies. Though I know in the various theatres it wasn't a precise enough science as it today I think it would be a fundamental additive. Especially if you associated some hexes with easy to supply by air because of the fact that their are large airfields there and really no need for air drops. We could put air supremacy up to counter and the chance that you drop the readiness to the enemy or split the cost on your bomber...long distance tech... say for each long distance bomber point you score you get a 20% readiness bonus for the hex, and 5% for longe range fighters.

I would like for it to be recalled in WW2 how many airfleets were used for supply purposes vs attack purposes? JJ you should be able to elaborate on that my friend.

[JerseyJohn]

Liam my friend, there were instances in WW II where it was done successfully.

The Luftwaffe supplied a cut off army at least once in the USSR during 1942, allowing troops to dig in till other forces could fight their way through to them. That was why Goering was so sure it could be done again at Stalingrad.

There were probably other instances; I'd need to look them up and somebody out there might have the info at hand and hopefully will be good enough to post it here.

Terrific idea, Liam.

[ March 29, 2003, 04:49 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[santabear]

There were some notable snafus, though, Market Garden and Stalingrad being the most famous. JerseyJohn: Do you have a good feel for the success/failure ratio for this?

[JerseyJohn]

Mike,

A ballpark figure would be about 60% success. It was used in Tunesia by the Axis creating the big buildup after Torch, and several other times. In the Pacific air supply was used more routinely, especially in Burma and New Guinea, but the forces involved weren't very large.

Most of these operations in WW II had to be done in a crude manner without instrumentation. Each individual commander had to practically find a way on his own whenever it came up.

If I were incorporating the idea in this game I'd have the size of the force being air supplied, the length of time it had to be done and the season as the key factors.

The first turn would always be successful, the second would begin getting hard for army sized units while still automatically successful for corps and so on, with corps always lagging a turn behind armies in terms of failure risk. There would have to be a way of determining what percentage of the needed supplies actually find their way to the troops.

[ April 03, 2003, 05:45 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Gaylord Focker]

Jersey John, santabear needs your help in another thread, i hope you don't let him down, his whole eastern front depends on you, help him Obi John Kenobi he needs your help!

[SeaWolf_48]

Hi guys

There are three points here.

1) When the Nazi use Para's they almost always used them to take airports, so they could get supplies from Ju-52's landing on the airport soon after taking the objective (Norway, Crete, and probibly Malta if attemped).

2) Allied jumps were more objective orientated because of their trust in supply drops to their troopers, like Liam is talking about.

3) Maybe we could have supplies from bombers to units being the same distance as the bomber could fly. A pull down button that would ask for supplies for out of supply units.

4) I would like to have Heavey bombers, medium bombers, fighter bombers, fighters, troop transports, and Navy fighter/torpido bombers/dive bombers, and only in late 44, JETS; but no one but me and Jersey John like all of the units.

[Liam]

Some of the game includes what SeaWolf is talking about. When you take Greece you get Crete and it serves no strategic purpose.

If Goering would've had enough airplanes during the siege of Stalingrad would the defenders of held out 6 more months? Could that have turned the tide until reinforcements were brought in to free bogged down German troops? What was stopping him a lack of tonage?

[SeaWolf_48]

You bring up a good point Liam.

In the Med. the Luftwaffe used Sardinia, Sicily, Pantelleria, Crete, and Rhodes to hamper the british supply line thoughout the war. These islands were very important for fighting shipping, and for gathering information on the enemy. I would like to see MPP's for controlling these islands, and MPP's taken away from the Allies because of there occupation.

Of coarse Iceland, Greenland, The Azores, Bear Is. and The Faeroes would have the same importance in the Atlantic. But you would need garrison troops and not a whole corps. A garrison would be made up of, 1 to 3 Army battalions, AA Battalion, 4 squadrons of fighter and scout planes, and small naval vessels (torpedo boats, frigates, and supply ships).

[JerseyJohn]

Gaylord

One of the things I love about Star Wars is that the Empire's arch rival, Obie Wan Kanobe can successfully go into hiding by altering his name to Ben Kanobe . The CIA and FBI should take a clue from this and start searching Brooklyn for Oscar Ben Laden.

SeaWolf and Liam

Sure it would be great to represent all those different types of aircraft even on this scale --but to do so would mean breaking the vow of simplicity. For some reason that seems to have become the primary commandment.

Agreed that Crete, Cyprus and all the Mediteranean locations should be more realistic and by now you know how I feel about Iceland and those other Atlantic Islands being incorporated into the game.

[Liam]

JJ and SeaWolf::

Those Islands were of important for strategic control. You have a lot more eyes when you stretch out another hex with an Island or two with occuppying troops on them of any type. All those Islands mentioned would have a lighthouse, recon planes, and or ships to keep an eye out for any Enemy trannies<surface ships> in the area. In SC they're merely a strategic sideshow. Even Iceland and Greenland were primarily used to transport.

[Liam]

BTW:

forget to mention if we were to allow coastal bombardment the various Islands mentioned would give a big + to their owners. Planes can sit on Crete but they're very worthless there. I read that Crete ensured German control of the Eastern Mediterrarean. That's why the paradroped 10 thousand men on it... Is this true John and if so does it impact the game as greatly as Malta? or half as much... should it be a strategic consideration in a bunched up deal and I notice Cyprus is English no matter what short of landing on it. An Island like that had communications and occuppying forces!

[JerseyJohn]

Liam

True, Iceland and Greenland were prime links, but their real strategic importance was as naval and air bases. Iceland in particular was the key to the Battle of the Atlantic. Flying boats and other long range aircraft operating out of Rejkavik bases closed a huge part of the Atlantic to the U-boats. In German hands it would have been invaluable as a sub and air base. Early in the war it was garrisoned by the British, who were replaced by U. S. Marines; I believe the change over took place even before the United States entered the war.

Other Islands, especially in the area between West Africa and Brazil, were of almost as much importance and for exactly the same reasons.

Good points also in your BTW entry.

Hitler and the British both saw Crete, like the Crimea, as being an ideal bomber base to hit the Romanian Oil Wells. Luftwaffe bombers based on Crete made strikes against Alexandria harbor and Italian four engined aircraft (some Italian planes had a longer range than their German counterparts) operating out of nearby Rhodes conducted recon along the Egyptian coastline. I don't think they ever actually controlled the Eastern Mediteranean, though the potential was undoubedly there if enough aircraft and crews had been available.

Cypress is a strange bird. True, the UK based troops and planes there; the population was divided between Greeks and Turks who were usually being kept apart by the British garrison. It ought to have more importance in these games but in the actual war it wasn't particularly notable! Perhaps if Rommel had won at El Alemain and rushed through the Sanai Cypress would have suddenly become significant as an air base. Presumably a German army under von Arnim would have held Tunesia against the American Torch operation if there wasn't a British army moving west from Libya.

Liam my friend, you have to be the master of the what if category. I'm sure more of your postings lead to them than everyone else's combined. Which is good, that's the most interesting aspect of these discussions.

[ April 05, 2003, 01:51 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Liam]

Why thankyou John,

without Barbarossa and fear of D-Day invasion by Germany in France there may have been enough free supplies and aircraft for Crete to be utilized and for Rommel to make a move breaking through the Suez and onward to the MidEast.

Italian Frogmen impress me in this Arena of combat. In fact they're probably the most successful branch of the Italian forces during WW2...Italian frogmen. They had come close to Naval Supremacy in the the Mediterranean never really knew I guess. Both the Valiant and Queen Elizabeth were damaged by these ingenius methods of sabotage. The Brits copied the moves on the Tirpitz.

Iceland being the only major base up so far north and out of range to be hit by conventional weapons is a perfection location for a Seabase. I say include Greenland and Iceland in one package and make a united City<base> that allows for the transport and resupply of units outside of Britian. Gives an alternate pathway onto Europe. Pretty blockable right now. No Azores no fun! If you conquor Portugal you want the Azores I wouldn't include the Canaries really or much of the Carribean....

Yeah I love what-ifs... It is re-writing history playing this game you know. Well, that's the only reason to model it after World War II isn't it? We want to relive a part of it each one of us. Think of how we would have done it and if it would've worked. Problem is there is a lot of complexity so we can only go so far before we complicated and bored! I don't mind bored, I like those anal games. HOI reminds me of that bit Have you played it and did you think is was worth much?

[JerseyJohn]

Never tried HOI. I was thinking about buying it when all the bad reviews started and so many people who'd bought it began complaining. I hope the people who put it out get all the bugs worked out but from what I've heard it sounds like a hopeless project.

Regarding the Crete idea and Germany focusing in that direction instead of hitting the USSR; the late Steven Ambrose said something to that effect, that having secured the Balkans and conquered Greece along with Crete, the way to the Suez and the Middle East was wide open if Hitler or his advisers had recognized it. The idea is very interesting.

It seems entirely plausable that, after that frogman strike had put the British BBs out of action in Alexandria (one of their sister ships, H. M. S. Barham, was sunk by a U-boat off the Libyan coast about the same time) that the Italians might well have been able to move enough men and supplies via Crete to Benghazi to give the Afrika Korps parity with the Eighth Army while the Luftwaffe, without the Russian campaign to worry about, provided air supremacy over the desert. The North African Campaign might very well have had an entirely different ending. The problem was the Italians didn't realize their frogmen had blown the bottoms out of those British Battleships!

Admiral Cunningham, knowing he was being watched from the Italian Embassy (Egypt was hypothetically a sovereign state under that dynamo of nationalist activity, King Faruk) had the crews walk around the ankle deep water covering the deck, raising and lowering the flags every dawn and dusk, while the Italians watched through their binoculars in disbelief. Their Frogmen had never returned; they were, in fact, sitting below decks locked in the stricken ships as an incentive to reveal delayed charges. The Italians fell for it, forfeiting one of the best chances they had to dominate the Mediteranean. At the very least their convoys might have sailed farther east, avoiding Malta entirely.

If the war had taken that course, and Germany took the Suez, Jordan, Palestine, Arabia, Kuwait, Iraq and Syria without an American entry, I think it's safe to believe Britain would have sued for peace. No doubt Turkey and possibly Spain would have joined the Axis and when Germany finally did invade the Soviet Union, it's chances of survival might have been next to none.

That might make a good souped up scenario. Germany owning the Middle East and Russia, already activated, having a much stronger army with HQs, etc. . .. Except, of course, Britain would have to be represented as conquered. A great scenario except the USSR would start out doomed!

The Canary Islands had great strategic importance as well. Hitler wanted Franco to give him one for a base. The Generalisimo wanted Algeria in return. The discussions snagged.

[Liam]

Hmmm, interesting how the damage was kept a secret. That would have given the Germans with air and the Italians with their navy a free for all! I dunno about Franco's flexability though, Hitler may have just invaded Spain to get rid of the need to dispute such insane purposals

I think that Britian might have fought on, that weakened, you know Churchill he wouldn't surrender on his deathbed! The MiddleEast, when comes to Iran is also a Russian interest do you think it would've awoke the Red Bear? I think it's possible, either that or forced Stalin rethink the deployment of his armies... He had a lot to defend with a lot extra! 1vs1 still a little bit tough to decide with Russia and Germany.

The Afrika Corp easily becoming the MidEast Corp and India Corp... Though could the Germans stretch that far without supplies, Japanese aid and take and hold the lands there? I wouldn't mind if we had a touch of the MidEast added here in this game. Not the whole shebang. India would've not longed Nazi Aggression and without Japan on either side of her, she wouldn't of surrendered<definitely a partisan state and a supply nightmare>

[JerseyJohn]

Liam

The Germans breaking into and conquering the Middle East would definitely have cause suspicion with the Soviets. At the very least they'd have wanted a clear strip of territory leading to the Persian Gulf and a warm water port. Germany would not have given it to them; the Soviets wanted a similar corridor to a year round port in Norway, and the Germans were unwilling to allow it, one of the reasons the Soviet side of their Pact began deteriorating.

The only thing that might have kept them dealing with each other would have been a strong Soviet move on Afghanistan and India while the Axis cultivated Iran, either as a member or as a conquest.

I don't think the Axis supply line would have had any problems. With Italian naval and German air dominance of the Mediteranean the whole supply picture would have changed.

If the Eighth Army had been defeated in Egypt it's my guess they'd have retreated south, into the Sudan. Withdrawing East into Arabia or Iraq would also have been feasable but if they'd been badly mauled by a greatly reinforced German PanzerArmeeAfrika with overwhelming air superiority, I'd think they'd move away from their enemy's supply lines instead of parrellel to it. It can't be represented in SC, but there might have been an interesting situation with Britain reorganizing in comparative safety along the Sudan Nile.

Probably a reinforced Italian army would have been assigned to seal off Egypt from the south while a German force under Rommel would have taken Iraq and Syria (which wasn't part of Vichy but garrisoned by Britain). After which Rommel's force would probably have reorganized for future activities, such as Barbarossa.

Hitler had no desire to invade Spain under any circumstances. Franco's offers were deliberatly ridiculous as he didn't want to enter into the war with Britain. He might have gone along with Hitler's program very readily except Admiral Canaris had already advised him not to and let him in the fact that the bulk of the German army and airforce had already been shifted to Poland.

"Who -- me?"

[ April 05, 2003, 05:13 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[santabear]

Hi everyone. Two things.

First, JJ: Yep. Hitler kept trying to get Stalin to think of the INDIAN Ocean as his warm water ocean.

And Canaris was a genius, wasn't he? Too bad he didn't survive. He always found the little things he could do that had maximum effect. Brilliant.

It is fun to invade Spain as the Axis in SC, though. You can usually take out Gibralter and seal off the Med for the British, then the Italians rule "Mare Nostrum" again.

And the loss of the Med would have been a serious blow to Britain (in real life, too). Churchill once wrote to Roosevelt that continuing the war would be a "long and bleak prospect" if that were to happen.

Other thing: I've always been partial to Bear Is., myself...

[ April 06, 2003, 05:29 AM: Message edited by: santabear ]

[JerseyJohn]

santabear

Just finished looking up Bear Island. If it's the one in Northeastern Main, and that's the only one I found -- though I'm sure there are others -- it can't be far from Boring Loring AFB, my old SAC stomping ground. Beautiful country, especially for those who enjoy being snowed in six months a year. Seems they've even closed down it's lighthouse. If it's totally uninhabited I might consider it for my retirement. Sounds ideal, plenty of time to catch up on reading without a bunch of noisy kids and other living people disturbing my privacy, thanks for telling me about it.

Poor Canaris had the traditional German afliction of writing things down. He took the precaution of hiding his notes away in a safe. Eventually the Gestapo found it and you know the rest. Agree entirely about the consequences of Spain's not entering the war in 1940. With a little German assistance Gibraltar would have been toast and things might well have gone differently, especially for Italy.

The only thing I don't like about people like Wilhelm Canaris is they cause the deaths of their own countrymen. The ninteenth century man of honor in me says if you don't like the cause retire to private life and keep a low profile. To occupy such a key position doesn't mean allegience only to the ruler, but also loyalty to your fellow fighting men. I think it's fair to say Canaris helped cause the deaths of possibly millions of his fellow soldiers.

Sure, this is a harsh assessment, his intentions were nobile, but the truth is his own people paid with their lives for his activities. If I were German I'd regard him as having been a traitor. Ironically the British never trusted his information; but this is one instance where it was put to use and with possibly fatal consequences for the Axis.

In the final analysis he deserves to be judged as a hero. My only reservation is it wasn't the kind of heroism I generally admire. In fairness to the Admiral, I'm sure he was aware of the consequences of his security leaks and it must have caused him much personal consternation. No doubt he'd have preferred serving his country as a fighting man. Matters of conscience are impossible to judge objectively.

[ April 06, 2003, 07:30 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]