The Unsolved Problem - In Defense of France (A discussion on Strategy)

[Carl G. E. von Mannerheim]

In Sc so far there are really two ways to defend France. Which I have dubbed Great War (Maginot war), and Realized War. Here I will go over both of these Strategies.

The Great War, (Maginot Mentality)

This is the way the Battle of France was actually fought. They Allies attempted to recreate the Great War all over again. They would use the Maginot line as the lynchpin on there defensive line and the Hinge was to be the Ardennes forest. As we all know, the Germans blitzed through The Low countries and Broke the Allied Hinge in the Ardennes. In the 1940 Fall Gelb Campaign, this is the way it is always fought, It is very hard fpr an Allied player to truly defend France against an even Average opponent. With the 7 (6?) French Armies and 1 British Army without any HQ it is very hard to hold the line in Flanders against any determined German Blitzkrieg Attack (ie. Armor and A/C)

The more daring/Stupid allied player will send His British HQ, Aifleet and Strategic Bomber all to france, along with the canadian Units. He might also bring in His Colonial French troops. This is a variation of the Great War strategy which i call 'Total' Great War. In this the Allis truly try to create a stalemate in Flanders. The Problem with this is, if/when France finally Falls, then Britain is usually wide open to Seelöwe (Sea Lion). This is of course if Germany has any units to spare. The main goal for the Allies in any of the Great War Strategies is to keep one solid front line . This way, the Germans have to slowly push them back all the way to Paris. Thereby causing many casualties on the German side. Italy is best to be contained in this strategy, use the Colonial corps to set up a defensive line inthe southern Moutnains. With this strategy(All variations of the Great War), France usually falls between June 1940- February 1941.

Realized War

In a game that starts off in 1939, it is very hard to put this strategy into effect. Since the Maginot line has already been built, and Britain and France are already at a weakened state. The best way to incorporate this strategy into the game is to disband the Airfleet (Let the UK deal with the Air, they are better suited for it), And Buy 4 Corps. 3 of which go on the Maginot Fortifications and the last one in Marseilles. Pull your armies back towards Paris. With the Money from the Airfleet, but and HQ, this is the best way to keep France in the fight. Then, disbanding either an Army of Fleet, buy a tank group. Since you have a superior tech than the Germans, this can really be a force to be reckoned with. Now, move your Colonial Corps to France proper, usually in the South, just to hold the Italians back. Now, the way you conduct the war will vary depending on the German Strategy. If you see him build up for the French invasion right after the Invasion of Poland, youll have to disband ALL of your fleets to finish buying those Corps for Maginot. Let the Hun invade the Low countries as always, and 99 times out of 100, Belgium will fall in one turn, before you can use her Units. So, using you armies in Flanders as your main wedge, start grinding against the German Lines, With the help of the RAF (including Malta AF, now in UK) pick one hex, and pound at it, using and AF's, BB's, Carriers you can muster, go in and start on a new hex the next turn. Be very careful to only occupy that hex if the surrounding German units are weak. While this is happening, the UK should be building armies and Corps and should be sending them to France. If done properly, buy mid-late 1940 you should be able to go on the offensive. Liberate the low countries and take a left turn into Germany.

The other way is to be used if the German player decided to go after Scandainavia before France. The strategy used here id commonly referred to as the 'Dutch Gambit.' DoW on the Low countries and take it in one turn, this is vital. Use the plunder to help towards the Maginot corps or the Tank Group and HQ. If you follow the 'Grind' strategy from earlier, you should be able to dig the Germans out from behind the Rhine.

The Consequences

All in all, the Invasion/Defense of France in 1940 can be as much of a game breaker as the War in Russia. On one hand, the Allied player can dealt the Germans a crippling blow to their Mpp income, which will eventually give the Allies the Upper hand. But if the Allies do eventually fold in France, after a prolonged exsistence, then these words will have a more somber meaing:

"What General Weygand called the Battle of France is over. I expect that the Battle of Britain is about to begin. Upon this battle depends the survival of Christian civilization. Upon it depends our own British life, and the long continuity of our institutions and our Empire. The whole fury and might of the enemy must very soon be turned on us. Hitler knows that he will have to break us in this Island or lose the war. If we can stand up to him, all Europe may be free and the life of the world may move forward into broad, sunlit uplands. But if we fail, then the whole world, including the United States, including all that we have known and cared for, will sink into the abyss of a new Dark Age made more sinister, and perhaps more protracted, by the lights of perverted science. Let us therefore brace ourselves to our duties, and so bear ourselves that, if the British Empire and its Commonwealth last for a thousand years, men will still say, "This was their finest hour."

[ December 30, 2002, 10:39 PM: Message edited by: Carl Von Mannerheim ]

[SeaWolf_48]

Very well thought out CVM.

Your second senario is very unrealistic. It could never have happened in history. Never in history has one Democracy invaded another to take it over. The British Gov. would have fallen, and the French Gov. would have been killed. The US would have sided with the Germans! I don't like the way SC can corrupt history.

Your fist senario has some good ideas that I will try!

[Konstantin V. Kotelnikov]

Great Post CvM

Some people abandon France to it's fate. However if you can hold out in france for a while you can seriously disrupt the axis players time table.

I look forward to shooting at your finnish comrades in a little over a month. Hopefully for this 2nd winter war we'll have snow unlike last year.

Not looking too good right now.

[Carl G. E. von Mannerheim]

I agree that the 'Dutch Gambit' is very Ahistorical, that is the reason I Never use it. However that does seem to be a very prominent strategy buy users on this board. Churchill Respected the Dutch and the Belgians, there is no way he'd allow that.

CvM

[JerseyJohn]

Carl Von Mannerheim

Great Examination of an interesting topic. And I make the current opinion of the Dutch Gambit unanimous with you distinguished gentlemen. I wish it were either impossible or so full of penalties no one would do it. Feel the same way for the Greek and Norway gambits, though in that last case Britain and France were actually in the process of landing and the Germans beat them by a day, so despite themselves newsreels made them the gallant liberators!

[ December 30, 2002, 10:56 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[SeaWolf_48]

Dido fellow cyber general!

[Compassion]

I don't mind seeing the Dutch Gambit... I see it as well balanced with the immediate gain in mmp's offset by the dip in war preparedness with the rest of the Allies. Then again, while I do like to study and interpret the war, I think the game is only tangentially associated with it as it's far too abstract. I think that's the point of the game... it's a historical jumping off point and it doesn't make a big distinction between the political and emotional ties after 1939.

[ December 30, 2002, 11:29 PM: Message edited by: Compassion ]

[Carl G. E. von Mannerheim]

The pre described strategies i gave (exeption of the Gambot mention) are Historically possible moves for the Allies. I will add more as I develope them.

CvM

[pzgndr]

The Dutch Gambit makes no economic or political sense for the Allies, since the loss of 180 MPPs for each turn the US entry is delayed will haunt Britain and Russia in their darkest hour. But it makes for an interesting game once in a while and may be worth it if your German opponent does something silly like attack Russia prior to France. It does deny Germany the plunder of the Low Countries and helps the Allies in the short term.

In a normal game, France will fall. Period. The only questions are how long will it take and what casualties each side will suffer. It is to the Allies advantage to delay the fall as long as possible, minimize British casualties, and force the Germans to fight all the way to Paris. Buying a HQ helps a little, but doesn't seem to affect the end result. Better to buy infantry and have enough units to gradually fall back. If you buy a research point and manage to get an AT advance, that's a plus. (Regardless, that research point comes back with the Free French later.) Try to establish a second defensive line and provide time for them to entrench. Don't forget to garrison Marseilles. Leapfrog any surviving units back to establish a third line around Paris. Hold the Maginot Line just long enough for it to serve its purpose, then use those units to help defend Paris before they get cut off. What about the air unit - keep it or disband it? I think there's some value to using it to hurt the Luftwaffe, but try to hold it back for the defense of Paris when German air fleets are probably at reduced strength. When you can no longer afford to maintain it, then disband it and use the MPPs for reinforcing the defense of Paris. If you're playing the Free French option, then keep it and move it to Britain. (I don't like this current option, and refuse to consider the French army evacuation strategy.)

Britain needs to decide early on what they want to risk on the Continent. Providing a BEF Army to help with a second defensive line is good, but try not to give it a 2-hex exposure or you may lose it. Here's a tip. Redeploy the surviving BEF back to Brest and consider sending another unit like the Canadian army to Bordeaux. Stay long enough to deny those cities to the Germans, but don't risk losing them. Rather than using British air and fleets to pick off a German unit on the coast north of Paris, wait until one approaches Brest without air cover. Carriers can be used to spot activity around Bordeaux, like op move of an air fleet or construction of a sub. Don't just run away when Paris falls, but don't hang around too long and risk losing units either.

[Carl G. E. von Mannerheim]

The Evacuation of France

Many people will say that evacuating any large number of French troops to England is Gamey or Unrealistic. When using this strategy, there is a fine line between being a Gamey Bastard and a Brilliant Strategist. I shall examine the differences in the two approaches:

Gamey Bastard

Move all units to Ports and evacs them to England. France falls before Late May.

Brilliant Strategist

Will keep as many units in France for as long as possible. With the AF in Northern France so it can fly to the UK on short notice. He keeps his Armies on Maginot. It is however, a good idea to keep Flanders open. Some greedy allied players will see this and make a run for Pris on the first turn of Invasion. After the first turn of Invasion, move all Maginot forces to the vicinity of Paris. This is where the main line of Defense will be. Now, with the HQ youve accquired, slip the 3 flanders armies, and the corps from Paris to the UK. This along with the AF will be a potent factor in the Liberation of Europe (just ask Comrades Trapp).

The reason this is not gamey is because of the stubborness of the French resistance. Paris usually wont fall until June 1940. And by then youll have 3 armies, 1 corps, 1AF and 1HQ in England, the Syrian Corps in Egypt, and the Algerian Corps in Malta. These forces will be VITAL for Overlord. Or, even a reoccpation of Brittany in 1941 ( ).

CvM

[Genghis]

Hmmm I like CVM's suggestion in disbanding the French air fleet and building troops instead.

I know it's gamey but how about disbanding the entire French navy and just build French troops to take them to England?

Once France falls, disband all the Free French troops and use the points to buy UK troops. French naval units are more risky to keep once france falls since a few will go to Vichy even if in English ports.

I haven't figured out the cost/buy ratio yet but

in the longer run it's probably better. Without a Free French HQ, those troops are more of a hinderance as they don't acrrue technology advances along with the British.

Too bad there is no LeClerc HQ avail for the Brits to buy once France falls.

[ December 31, 2002, 08:41 PM: Message edited by: Genghis ]

[Canuck]

I'm loving this discussion guys Keep it up. I only am playing the demo right now and have been trying multiple strategies for the defence of France. My favourite (called here the Great War defence). Is to try to stall the German offensive machine after they take the low countries. The Maginot line provides effective defense of the France border and I try to get 2.5 lines of defence along the French/Low Countries border, with French units in the front, and and British troops providing support in case there are any breaks in the line.

I brought over the British HQ and Army's from Britain, and operationally moved the Malta AF up to France, as well as trasnporting the French force in Algiers up to Southern France to help protect from any Italian invasion.

After cleaning up the Atlantic I position French and English ships along the Low Countries coast and pound the German HQ's.

Using this tactic I was able to stalemate the Germans in the Low Countries, right up until April of '41, when the demo ended.

My lines were still strong so I believe I could have kept up the defence for much longer (although my defence along the italian border was stretched quite thin and they would have eventually caused problems.

[Carl G. E. von Mannerheim]

My favourite (called here the Great War defence).

You are my kind of guy.

But the using of Commonwealth troops in a reserve role is the best way to hold the line in France.

Im afraid that as soon as you get the full version you will find it very hard to hold France for that long.

CvM

[JerseyJohn]

Bill Macon --". . . move it to Britain. (I don't like this current option, and refuse to consider the French army evacuation strategy.) "

Agreed in spades.

The French were not racing to leave their country, they were fighting very hard to defend it. Contrary to what many people have come to believe, France did not topple easily. The Germans suffered significant casualties in the second stage (post Low Countries; invasion of France itself) of their Western Offensive.

This is another detail of the game that I think should be changed. And evacuating troops and air units from France isn't even that good for Britain as they never get past whatever level France was at when it fell. In 1944 a L=0 won't be of much use except as cannon fodder. Perhaps there's a strategy of evacuating these units, then disbanding them as British MPPs later in the game. I've never used it and don't know if it exists, but I'm against the basic existence of that unit as having been pulled out of it's homeland. This does not reflect Free French troops fighting with the British.

An alternate system needs to be developed. Hopefully one that rewards an allied player for holding France as much as possible and makes it meaningless to evacuate French armies to Britain -- in Clash such units vanished with their government; if Vichy was adapted two of the three French capital naval units became British.

[ January 01, 2003, 01:50 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Comrade Trapp]

CVM...you up for a game tonight?

Comrade Trapp

[Genghis]

JerseyJohn

Perhaps a way to resolve the Free French unit situation is to have the program calculate the number of them that actually arrive in UK. Hence there would be no need to physically move them out of France and the Allied player can just defend France seriously. The gamey situation here then would be solved

Same thing with UK units in France after it falls. So long as any ports remain open, Brits can automatically be safely evacuated to the UK that same turn France falls.

[zappsweden]

I happen to use a combination of the two strategies. I often DO NOT use the dutch gambit and just entrench along the border and buy an HQ quick i.e I sell the french air. I fight for France first BUT the timing is important. On the exact turn when axis are near a breakthrough i pull the french back and let my UK+canadian line take the hit instead. It takes 3-4 turns to evacuate the French so Paris must hold long enough for the french to escape.

Since french troops are wiped out on surrender, I withdraw them EARLIER than UK troops. That means i defend paris (and its surroundings) with canadian army and UK corps. When the french troops are safe on their way to england i can evacuate Paris.

Since i try to battle for France early on i can hold France until April-Juni 1940 ie. not long but over all NO BIG CASUALTIES.

Since i do not try to hang on to France by evacuating Africa, Italy joins pretty late which ofcourse earns me some money (by them not having income).

[ January 01, 2003, 10:37 AM: Message edited by: zappsweden ]

[zappsweden]

My allied French defense strategy can be described as a delaying action with LOW allied losses.

IMPORTANT:

Have a main plan but be ready to change it if the game develops different from what you expected.

[ January 01, 2003, 09:26 AM: Message edited by: zappsweden ]

[kenfedoroff]

Originally posted by Carl Von Mannerheim:

[QB]

Brilliant Strategist

Will keep as many units in France for as long as possible. With the AF in Northern France so it can fly to the UK on short notice..............

________________________________________________

I am playing a fellow by the name of AxisGeneral1 who defended France until Dec. '40 using a variation of this strategy. It threw all my plans for Norway, Greece and Sweden in the dumpster. Watch out for this guy, he knows how to pull it off.

Sincerely,

Ken

[Carl G. E. von Mannerheim]

Im glad to see it works.

CvM

[Friedrich_der_2]

You can defend France. I wrote about a possible strategy which was tested in my first game as Allies against Comrade Trapp in this threat:

http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=18;t=001865

It is full of mistakes because I am still a newbie and I had much luck.

Sven