Partisans...

[m45tion87]

Partisan could do something else than just move and try to attack against nearest enemy unit... I really don't why they won't do anything else like:

- Destroy mines and oilfields

- Disrupt MPP earnings

- Sabotage airplanes (Well I don't know about this)

Post your opinion...

I hope I wrote that one right...

[ev]

well, they sort of do...

In my first game as Axis I left some Russian Cities without a garrison. One was taken by partisans. I lost its production for a couple of turns until I destroyed the partisan unit. When I retook the city, it was destroyed by the Soviets, so I lost even more MPPS later on.

You avoid this if you garrison your rear cities, but that also cost MPPs in the form of troops removed from the front line.

I think the present partisan format is good enough. However, I would like Hubert to allow us to buy half strength units to use as garrisons.

[Rouge]

1941 partisans in forests (location unknown)

1944 partisan brigade forming for a aussult near oddessea

Judging by these i think that air feild attacks and rigourous assults should be spared until later on in the war when partisans were more equiped

[m45tion87]

Maybe...

"Artillery is a God of war" Joseph Stalin

[I/O Error]

At this point partisans are ABSOLUTELY worthless. It takes a compeltely incompetent human player to really have serious problems with partisans. (Errr, that's not a dig at you ev, you know what I mean)

Remember, partisans did a LOT of work against lines of communication and supply; that was the entire point of partisans! And none of that is modeled in the game. I'd like to see Russian or Yugoslav partisans drain the supplies of advancing Germans in Russia until they are killed off, something like that. Or an MPP drain just by existing, similar to U-Boats.

[Fubarno]

Disrupting supply is exactly what I have used them for and it works as a minor hindrance or worse depending on the dispersement of Axis troops. I try to move them across the Axis rear to disrupt their supply line. If they are lucky they might capture a city center or link up with the front line and become fully supplied and reinforced. They also force the Axis to garison the city centers and countryside which is a further drain on mpp's.

My complaint is that more countries don't have a partisan contingent. Surely the U.K., Canada, and the U.S. would field partisans. France, Holland, and Norway also had partisans on a much smaller scale then the Soviet Union and Yugoslavia. Italy had a large anti-Fascist partisan uprising in the north after they surrendered and were occupied by Germany. These are some details that could add to the surprise and richness of the game,

Of course there are no video cut-scenes of partisans blowing bridges and railroads and ambushing supply convoys but most people turn those things off after a game or two and the game was only $25 afterall.

Edit; cool pictures of the partisans. They look like a fun bunch.

[ November 06, 2002, 02:36 PM: Message edited by: Fubarno ]

[Flash Gordon]

I don't think partisans are completely useless.

They serve to tie up troops that you have to keep garrisoned in certain regions if you want to avoid the headache that a partisan unit on the loose can cause.

I think the game presents partisans in a fairly balanced way.

It's just strange that only Yugoslavia and the USSR seem to have partisans - and apparently, USSR partisans stop operating once the USSR capitulates (I wish I knew that earlier because THEN I would have transferred my entire war machine to the west - as it was, in the first game that I defeated the USSR, I had a big chunk of my military still in the east becasue I was concerned about partisans running amuck).

[m45tion87]

If you can use partisans to take over your captured cities (Russia ect.) I must say that your opponent really can't be very experienced player...

Or you are just lucky!

There could be "supply convoys" that could be disrupt...

[I/O Error]

Yeah, as it stands Partisans are hardly a drain on MP points. No competent human player leaves cities undefended by a corps, and no full strength corps in a city can be defeated by partisans. Honestly, they're quite worthless against anybody other than the AI. They need to be a long term thorn in the side.

[Rouge]

Not as if this teenage lot could be a threat to the Werhmacht

These on the otherhand is a Russian Partisan group that is comprised of detatched 3rd shock army soldiers, polish soldiers and proper partisans

[ November 07, 2002, 09:22 PM: Message edited by: Rouge ]

[I/O Error]

Yes, and what of groups like the French Resistance? Absolutely terrible in the open field, they made an absolute mess of German communication and supply lines, contributing measurably towards Allied success on D-Day and afterwards. SC simply does not model that at all.

Even those more professional partisans didn't engage in stand-up fights with the Wehrmacht, that would have been insane!

[Carl G. E. von Mannerheim]

I dont think that the French Reistance shuold be included. Their activities were not on the same level of the slavs

CvM

[Rouge]

I would prefer if yugoslavia produced understrength armies rather then corps, eg. titos

Also i would like to see the blood thirsty chetnicks and the Ustasha storm troopers. As one said to a SS officer "You Germans are far to practical useing bullets, we however use knives swords and pipe-much easier"

Titos army with a T-34, one of 15 the had

[I/O Error]

Originally posted by Carl Von Mannerheim:

I dont think that the French Reistance shuold be included. Their activities were not on the same level of the slavs

CvM

No no no, you miss my point. I certainly don't want the French Resistance put into SC, I think it would be a bad idea. What I was pointing out was what most Partisan groups were REALLY good at, attacking supply lines. That includes the larger groups in Russia and Yugoslavia. Do you think that Partisans are represented well in SC?

[ November 07, 2002, 11:42 PM: Message edited by: I/O Error ]

[Flash Gordon]

How would you go about modeling supply lines in a game of this scale?

I guess I could think of one but it would be a total headache.

Also, partisan groups can't seem to "hide" very well, which was one of their strengths. Once they appear, they're just a regular unit.

[ev]

Originally posted by I/O Error:

Yes, and what of groups like the French Resistance? Absolutely terrible in the open field, they made an absolute mess of German communication and supply lines, contributing measurably towards Allied success on D-Day and afterwards. SC simply does not model that at all.

Even those more professional partisans didn't engage in stand-up fights with the Wehrmacht, that would have been insane!

You bring some interesting points here.

Partisans should be able to avoid a fight. ...sort of like a submarine diving from attack. Perhaps there should be a random chance of a partisan hiding from attack. This would make partisans harder to eliminate.

Another way of making partisans more effective is to make them harder to find. I believe someone else made that point here. The game could perhaps mimic the submarine scheme, where units must come much closer to see them (ground units 1 hex, air units 3 hexes, ...or something like that).

Another idea: Partisans should be able to see 3 hexes away. Partisans were often good at gathering information ...passing as local civilians or gathering rumors from the local population. Seeing farther away would simulate their information gathering capabilities and would make it easier for them to avoid enemy units.

[Rouge]

I like the 3 hex vision idea it would work to, as for the random chance at evasion i just thought something up. THIS COULD BE A BALANCE FOR SS UNITS! think about it SS units could have a higher chance at attacking them but would be useless against regular infantry.

[ev]

...some more ideas on "evading attack" and on Rouge's comment on SS.

I was thinking about my prior idea on partisans evading attack. A large partisan army should be harder to hide than a smaller unit. Hence, I would make it easier for the partisan unit to evade as it losses strength in combat. Perhapps something like this:

At strength 5: 0% chance of evading attack

At strength 4: 10% chance of evading attack

At strength 3: 20% chance of evading attack

At strength 2: 30% chance of evading attack

At strength 1: 40% chance of evading attack.

Also, I would probably make it harder to evade attack if there are other attacker units adjacent to hex. So a strength 2 partisan surrounded by 3 enemy units would not have a chance to evade, but a strength 1 partisan surrounded by 3 enemy units would still have a 10% chance of evading attack.

As per this and prior comments, I believe partisans should be a special kind of unit, not just an understrength corps. Likewise, it would make sense to allow the Axis to build specialized security units (as per Rouge's suggestion) However, in terms of actual game strategy, I think many players would prefere to use Italian, Hungarian, Rumanian, or Bulgarian troops for security, and keep German MPPs for the front line troops where they can put to good use the superior HQ's and Tech Levels.