Defeating Allied AI

[6thAirborne]

Hi,

I have been playing SC for the last 6 months and i must admit its a great game :cool: .

I can defeat the allied AI on all the difficulty settings apart from expert +2. A normal game sees poland, france, denmark etc fall to the Axis and the russian war goes well untill the gates of moscow are reached, at which point things always go wrong, Siberian reinforcements and the AI invasion of France all lead to defeat for the axis by late or mid 1944 :mad: . Can anyone defeat the allied AI on max difficulty? and do they have some tips for a struggling general?

As the allies however i can defeat the Axis on max difficulty...

I await your advice,

Cheers!

[santabear]

Greetings, fellow sufferer! I started a thread titled "Machismo AI" that deals with the same issue, so please don't consider this advice from an expert. I'll just share some of my thoughts/laments.

The crucial problem is to not get bogged down in Russia, lest the Allies get feisty in the West. And this is related to the MPP problem: AI is paying the same amount per unit, but is getting far superior units.

Here are the things that can go amiss that will make the war unwinnable:

a. Not enough MPPs early on to build a good air force

b. Russian readiness increases too quickly, so Barbarossa works at first but can't be sustained

c. Britain and America get lucky with their air tech--they have fewer units but of superior quality

Note that the war is decided before Barbarossa. The invasion of Russia will always start well--it's maintaining it while fending off the Allies that's the problem.

When I do manage to win, here is how things go:

1. Germany MUST have air supremacy in the West. Superior quality air units in sufficent number to defeat an invasion. Building an Italian HQ and some Italian air units helps a great deal. With 4-6 German and 3-4 Italian air units, you can cause enough damage to turn back an attempted Overlord. Obviously, SINK THE AIRCRAFT CARRIERS first. Once the Royal Navy springs a few leaks your back will be safe.

The key to success in Russia, though, is air supremacy in the west. Once you can concentrate your MPPs on the Russian front your chances of fending off the Siberians improve greatly.

2. When the Siberian army transfers: Don't get overextended trying to take Moscow or Rostov. Reinforce units and make sure you have a solid line and good HQ support. Line up some good reinforcements in case the Ivans get lucky somewhere.

3. Advance slowly in Russia, making sure all your units stay in good supply and close together. When the counterattack comes, send in the reserves where they can destroy the most important Russian units. Once the tanks and the rocket unit are killed, the Russians will start to retreat again.

In other words, you go over to the defensive for a turn or two, sucker the Russian into attacking, then counterattack him into oblivion.

4. If you get to this point, you've won the war. Enjoy the feeling--it's rare!

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OK. So here are two junior officers trying to get into staff college. Can someone help us out?

[6thAirborne]

Interesting points. I must admit that i have never really used an Italian air force. I normally build 5 Italian Armies and an HQ and use them on the southern front of Russia along with the minor allied armies.

I find though that in the extreme difficulty games that MPPs are scarce and the construction of so many air fleets to defend the west is problematical. It usually means a smaller army in the East wich struggles against the superior soviet forces and there XP bonus.

[Edwin P.]

Another tactic to try is;

Breaking the Italian fleet out into the Atlantic and building an additional 2 subs to sink invading allied transports. This allow you to concentrate your air in the East once the war in russia begins.

Also, to consistently win at this level I find that I must conquer; Denmark, Greece, Vichy, Norway, and Sweden and (Turkey or Iraq) (and once the US has entered the war I will often take Switzerland for the plunder & experience while my troops wait for the coming invasion.)

[ April 25, 2003, 02:22 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[Paqman]

I am by no means an expert, but I thought I would give my 2 cents.

I have won against the Allies with +2 exp. on a few occasions.

My main tactic is to get air supremacy on the western front. This is a MUST. I try to get 4 or 5 air fleets, with 1 HQ of course. Investing early in research, if I am lucky I can get jets +1 & range +1. First, I try to gang up on th british air fleet, then the free french air fleet. Then gang up on the HQ, and ships. Once you get air supremacy, it should be easy going. When the USA join, you can pick apart transports.

I have not had any success with Italian air fleets. I can't invest in research, so they are no match for Allied +2 fleets. Maybe I don't know the best way to use them.

On the eastern side, I advance a little slower than usual, and especially guards against partisans with Italian corps. I take all the cities before reaching Moscow, and then it's defense for a few turns like stated by santabear. The AI is not very smart with these extra units, just throws them into the fight.

With air supremacy in the West, I can delay or prevent an invasion, so I can take my sweet ass time in the east.

I don't always win, and if I do it's pretty late 1946+.

Paqman

[6thAirborne]

Thanks for all your suggestions.

I am now playing a game using the suggestion of air power in the west, thanks santabear and others who suggested it.

I destroyed the RAF, USAF the Free French and Bomber command. This has prevented an allied invasion, so far its sept 1943 and no allied invasion of france has occoured. The German advance on Russia had to go in without ANY German air support (2 italian fighter groups) the advance went well untill the siberians turned up..

The siberians launched one of the largest counter attacks i have ever seen! i contained it though with the loss of 2 tank groups and 2 or 3 armies, pretty heavy losses. Got my advance back on track now howver and things look good.

The allies however are trying to invade Norway, they have sent at least 2 US armies and 2 British armies supported by two aircraft carriers and BBs, this is not a major problem but they seem to want to take out norway before launching an Overlord attempt.

Has anyone else experienced this behavior in the AI before?

Thanks for your help!

[Paqman]

The allies however are trying to invade Norway, they have sent at least 2 US armies and 2 British armies supported by two aircraft carriers and BBs, this is not a major problem but they seem to want to take out norway before launching an Overlord attempt.

That is interesting, I have not seen that before. I have only seen the AI attempt a landing in Norway if one of the cities is unoccupied.

Paqman

[santabear]

RE Norway: Yep. The Brits will float a corps up there. It retreats if you operate in a corps to cover the port. Otherwise it will try an invasion. Better to let them have Norway, especially if you can kill a ship or two.

Once you gain air superiority you should be able to bang on the Russians fairly well. The Siberian Army OB varies quite a bit, especially depending on which setting (Green-Expert). Sometimes it's an HQ with a few units. I've also seen several HQ, air fleets, tanks and a "bonus" rocket unit.

Against Russian AI: The Ivans will be feisty as long as they have some heavy firepower (tanks, rockets). As soon as those are killed, they go back into "retreat mode," so it's worth taking some (reasonable) losses to get rid of those units. You just have to judge how many units you can afford to lose.

Right after you've beat off an invasion attempt is a good time to get somewhat aggressive in the East. The Brits will need several turns to patch the holes in their fleet, so you have some time to grow new armies if you need to.

[santabear]

Edwin:

Have you found that the Italians can handle the Brits/Americans? It seems they will have to station themselves near Ireland/entrance to the English channel. Is that correct? Otherwise, they'll have transports slipping around them. I've always been afraid that they'd be swimming after a turn or two. If you don't move the two German subs, the Brits never hunt them. Do you leave them in place until the Italians show up?

I'll have to try this. I'm assuming, then, that after France, you do Vichy then Spain/Gibraltar--is that correct?

And I'll have to try the "Swiss special." I've never even thought of it, since there's no city.

It's always interesting to hear your ideas.

It is GREAT for the Axis to get Turkey if they can pull it off before or during the Russian campaign. The Russians will operate units down to Ankara (drawing them away from the main battle), and once you've won, you just keep going through the mountains into the oilfields.

I've not been able to get enough oomph in the expert level games to "get to" Turkey. Do you use op-ed over air once the Italians close the Atlantic?

[santabear]

*** ARGH DUPLICATE POST--PLS DELETE ***

Edwin:

Have you found that the Italians can handle the Brits/Americans? It seems they will have to station themselves near Ireland/entrance to the English channel. Is that correct? Otherwise, they'll have transports slipping around them. I've always been afraid that they'd be swimming after a turn or two. If you don't move the two German subs, the Brits never hunt them. Do you leave them in place until the Italians show up?

I'll have to try this. I'm assuming, then, that after France, you do Vichy then Spain/Gibraltar--is that correct?

And I'll have to try the "Swiss special." I've never even thought of it, since there's no city.

It's always interesting to hear your ideas.

It is GREAT for the Axis to get Turkey if they can pull it off before or during the Russian campaign. The Russians will operate units down to Ankara (drawing them away from the main battle), and once you've won, you just keep going through the mountains into the oilfields.

I've not been able to get enough oomph in the expert level games to "get to" Turkey. Do you use op-ed over air once the Italians close the Atlantic?

[ April 28, 2003, 08:43 AM: Message edited by: santabear ]

[Edwin P.]

santabear

1st: I normally station the German/Italian fleets in the Mid atlantic out of range of UK air and hit the transports when they make the run for Manchester.

RE: Naval Strategy Option 1 - Moving Italian Fleet to the Atlantic

Italian Strategy Option #1

Step 1. Italian Fleet sinks UK Fleet in the Med. (Tip: Lure Carrier out by moving Italian Army towards Cairo 1 hex or 2) and sends 1 corps east to take Suez (if the human did not move the Frech Corps there first).

Step 2. Italy takes Greece via amphibious invasion in 1 turn for MPPs with 1 Battleship, 1 corps, and two armies attacking, and possibly 1 air or 1 extra corps supporting.

Step 3. Italian Fleet heads west and sinks any Free French Fleets in the Western Med.

Step 4. Move 3 Air Fleets (usually 2 Italian & 1 German) to Sicily

Step 5. Transport 2 Armies to East and West of Algiers

Step 6. Position Troops along Vichy border in France and Italy. 1 Air Unit in Support.

Step 7. Declare War on Vichy - Attack Algiers with 2 battleships and land armies to attack. You can eliminate the Corps unit stationed here in 1 turn. Move forces to attack Marseilles. Have italian army on Vichy France Border attack Vichy naval unit in port. Use Italian Navy and air units to Attack free french fleet.

Step 8. Take Algiers then on the next turn take Marseilles and then you have Vichy Plunder without having to take Vicy Beruit.

Step 9. Move 3 air fleets from Sicily to Algiers

Step 10. Bomb Port at Gibralter to zero.

Step 11. Move Italian Fleet through the Port to Atlantic and head North.

PS: Have Italy Invest 1 tech chit in gun laying radar to increase the strength of their surface ships.

German Actions for Naval Strategy #1

First Invest 1 or 2 Chits in Long Range Air.

1. Mass Air Fleet in Denmark

2. UK Send corps transport out into North Sea.

3. UK Sends 2 to 3 Fleets to intercept. Air Fleets and German Navy Sinks Fleets. UK sends another 1 or 2 fleets in, you destroy them. Take Norway.

4. Repair German Ships

5. Mass German Air Fleets (usally a line of 7 to 8) along French Cost

6. Send German fleet down along French coast under protection of German Air. UK will send in Fleets and or Air to Stop. Sink Fleets, Destroy any air that comes in range.

7. Build 2 German Subs at southern French Port

8. Italian and German Fleets should meet in the Mid Atlantic. Normally you will have about 4 Italian Ships + 4 German Ships + 2 German Subs in the North Atlantic at this time = 10 Naval Units

Hopefully, this is before the US enters the war so you can stop most of the US fleet from reaching the UK. If you leave a hole in your blockade the Allied will sail to it and certain death.

9. Now you can sink Allied fleets and blockade the Atlantic and Allied AI will not try invasion of France. This allows you to concentrate all of your resources on defeating Russia.

This strategy works especially well against human players who scrap their UK fleets for MPPs to buy air fleets and/or a HQ unit. It does not work if they have managed to preserve their UK fleets or destroyed the Italian fleet early in the war.

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RE: Switzerland - The Swiss start off with entrenchment level 4 so you need to attack them from all sides to quickly finish them off. Great experience, Good plunder, No Cities/Resources.

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RE: Turkey - Their are three ways to take Turkey.

1. Greece > Attack Istanbul from 3 hexes , destroying 1 army unit each turn with Italian Air op-ed from Algiers and attacks using 3 Italian Armies and 1 Armor supported by a HQ > Once Istanbul Falls Sends Italian transports through to South Eastern Russia > Seize Resources. When have time send troops overland to take Ankara.

PS: Let the Russian Fleet into the Med then trap it by blocking the straits with a corps unit landed on the eastern shore of Turkish straits. After Instanbul falls destroy it with Italian Air.

2. Invade from South of Ankara with 1 armored unit and 2 armies (moved east from Vichy Algiers)

3. First take Iraq then take Ankara.

[ April 28, 2003, 01:23 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[Edwin P.]

FYI: My strategies for defeating the Allied AI;

1. Strong Air (8 Fleets) + 7 Tanks + infantry vs Russia

2. Strong Armor 12 Armor + 5 Air + infantry vs Russian

3. Control the Atlantic Ocean

(AI Fix: Preserve and Consolidate the Fleet)

4. French bait & destruction (Allies will land in France when their is a wall of Italian units and German armor entrenched in a line from Paris to that south western French city.

(AI Fix: Do not invade where Axis is strong. If AI starts to lose units evacuate back to UK, don't let the entire invading force be destroyed.

5. French Bait & Switch (Allies land in France, Germans land in the UK)

(AI Fix: Keep a fleet or two guarding the North Sea)

6. Strong Army for Russian Invasion (think lots & lots of armies and corps with AntiTank Level 2+)

7. Invade US or Canada when US troops land in the UK

(AI Fix: If German transports heading toward US operate US Air back to US & build corps to hold cities, if Germans transports are adjacent to coast and not enough MPPs to build corps to hold all cities then reclaim research MPPs. Consider moving 1 French corps to Canada to hold coastal port city).

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AI Suggestions:

1st. Improve the Russian AI - Give it a % to use Norse's Strategy for Defending the Motherland and two other strategies. (would like to see Russia use black sea ports to make a landing in Axis Minor powers to seize undefended resources)

2nd. If Axis ignores Med then % have the Allied AI try to conquer Iraq and then operate air units and land units from Egypt to Russia.

3rd. If Moscow is about to become surrounded have the Russian AI reclaim its research chits and use them to buy more units.

4th. Have the Allied AI threaten France when France is undefended and withdraw troops via port of Brest when facing overwhelming Axis response.

5th. Have the Allied AI liberate and or invade Norway/Sweden (or Portugal/Spain) after the US enters the war. Advantages 1) Resources, 2) Plunder, 3) Can move/operate air from UK to Sweden then to Russia, 4) Can Destroy German Navy in Baltic and threaten Berlin with invasion, 5) deprives Germany of income from 4 mines, 3 cities and 3 ports.

[ April 28, 2003, 02:33 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]