Supply chain?

[DragonFlame]

One question for the experienced players:

In the strategy guide (thanks to Bill and Dan) I read about building supply chains by linking up several HQs to create better supply at the front.

I tried to do this in North Afrika with 2 Italian HQs one in the near of Tobruk (has supply value of 8 itself) and the 2nd near Alexandria. What I expected is the better supplied HQ will supply the 2nd but this does not seem to work. Can anybody please tell me how exactly these HQ supply things work?

[Terif]

Sorry, but it is not possible to create a real " supply chain".

i.e. you cant build a chain with all hqs at full supply like it could be thought.

e.g. in Africa: if you have a Hq within supply range of a city (4 hexes) then it provides a supply of 8. All units one hex away from this hq have 7, 2 hexes away 6 and so on...

if you place another Hq 2 hexes away it has a supply of 6 and NOT how you could think from this "supply chain" thing 8.

In consequence you can increase the supply of a second Hq a bit, but this has no effect on normal ground units (they are supplied from the first Hq anyway). The only advantage of such a "chain" is that the second Hq can have a slightly increased supply rate (minimum is 5 anyway) and can move 2 hexes instead of 1...(in Russia its the same, but with supply 10 (when supplied from Poland), so the second Hq has a slight advantage within 4 hexes away from the first hq)

[DragonFlame]

Thanks, Terif for your answer.

I just wonder if that is a real mistake in the Strat guide or I did get it wrong?

Anyway it seems that the purchase and shipping of the 2nd HQ was a waste of money.

[Igzter]

This is probably one of the biggest design flaws of SC. One should be able to build close to the center of an army group. Right now it is too much city centered, and this was not the way WW2 was fought, one collected the resources at the front close to the headquarters and collected the resources needed to launch an effort towards the enemy. This said I want to comment on the re-capturing routine of the russians.. they never routed conscripts from captured cities, this is not reflected in this game what so ever.

[pzgndr]

a real mistake in the Strat guide

:eek:

Well, not really. I went back and looked at what we wrote:

HQ's can be linked to supply each other over extended distances, which greatly helps when you have Scorched Earth effects, partisan effects, or rough terrain to deal with.

This is sufficiently vague to just give some idea that linking HQ's can improve supply without giving specifics, based on the version changes for v1.04. This could use some more analysis, and Terif provided good insights. As the "rules" read, it sounds possible for a linked HQ at extended distance to provide greater supply than the HQ closer to home (e.g.; HQ #1 at 5 or less provides supply 8, and HQ #2 within a couple of hexes at 6 or more would provide maximum supply.) This wouldn't be correct, and obviously isn't happening.

Dan and I have one Strategy Guide update ready for posting (whenever Otto gets back). This supply linking issue could use some clarification and would be an item for a future update. BTW, this IS a community effort, so any testing results folks want to post here on the forum would be greatly appreciated.

[pzgndr]

OK, here is some information for the upcoming errata file regarding HQ supply based on some testing and comments from Hubert:

The HQ supply calculations are dependent upon the supply value of the nearest supply source city, not the HQ's distance from the city. (Normal unit supply is determined by a unit's distance from its nearest supply source; HQ supply is determined differently.) If the HQ is within the supply range of the city (i.e., the HQ's virtual supply is one or more), then it receives the full supply value associated with that city (i.e., ten if the city value is greater than five, eight if the city value is five or less). If the HQ is out of supply range, then its supply drops to five.

Friendly HQ's can be linked to supply each other over extended distances. HQ supply rules based on cities are calculated first. Then if an HQ can increase another HQ's supply in the vicinity based on the rules of how HQ's supply other units, the linked HQ will receive an increased value. This could benefit an out-of-supply HQ by giving it a supply value greater than five, thus giving it maximum action points for movement and maximum reinforcement ability; however, no increased supply gets passed on to extended units beyond what they would normally receive from the linking HQ. In all cases HQ's would receive maximum value of supply available to it (i.e., another HQ with lower supply in the vicinity cannot decrease an HQ's supply value).

Does this help, or is some more clarification necessary? I'll admit I have misunderstood HQ supply, thinking all this time that it was determined like normal unit supply. There's a subtle difference that I never noticed.

[Shaka of Carthage]

Bill Macon

Could you write a Dummies Guide to linking Supply HQs? Maybe I'm tired, but I felt like I was reading legalise or the rules for WIF.

[Oak]

Let me try to paraphrase and Bill can tell me if I got it right.

A HQ will have the supply value of the nearest city. HQ that are in a chain over some distance can help increase the supply of the HQ at the end of the chain, but never to more than the value of the highest rated city in the chain. And while that higher supply will apply to the HQ at the end of the chain, it won't help the supply of the units supported by that HQ at the end of the chain. And, their is no difference between having lots of HQs getting additional supply from a HQ and only one getting additional supply from a HQ when it comes to determining how much extra supply they will get.

My personal take on this is that linking HQs over a distance where you have good supply at one end and bad supply at the other can provide some advantage, but that advantage is likely to be marginal.

[JerseyJohn]

As Bill said someplace, this is one of the most difficult single aspects of the game. The explanations offered by Terif, Bill and Oak clarified a lot for me and this is the rule of thumb I've been using:

HQs need to be a maximum of four hexes from the last linked HQ or supplied city to be effective, in other words provide more than their minimum of five. In turn that HQ will supply units a maximum of four hexes away from itself -- within five spaces is the way I think it's worded, but I find that fifth hex puts the unit out of range. For supply purposes HQs appear to serve all units within range that are on the same side. I think there's a slight drop off with each link, but I may be mistaken there. Each hex separating a unit from the HQ reduces the supplies it receives by one. I know a lot of that was said earlier but I'm trying to see if this is the correct way to work the system.

Probably I'm not grasping the entire issue under discussion and might still have the wrong take on this system.

[ August 22, 2003, 05:13 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[BK6583]

In some respects this is still clear as mud. I'm a visual kind of guy, so if someone is willing to put in the time, some actual 'picture' examples of various supply situations with HQs (and supply values annotated per hex to show the dynamics) would be enormously appreciated!

As a quick aside, being a relative newbie here, I'm finding the dynamics for HQ and unit attachments to be extremely frustrating and aggratvating. I really feel I should be allowed to influence this, even if it means more work.

[Shaka of Carthage]

BK6583

I realize that this isn't what you want to hear, but you do have the ability to influence the units that are attached to a HQ, because you control how close they are to that HQ.

The HQs and the influence they have on units is pretty straightforward, but there are quite a few people here who would be happy to answer any questions you may have.

There is a lot to absorb in SC. Its one of those "easy to learn, difficult to master" type of things. One of the most common newbie mistakes, is to think this is some sort of Axis and Allies type game, and not appreciate the subtle effects that terrain, readiness and supply have on units.

[pzgndr]

I'll see what I can do to make the description a little clearer, but it's complicated any way you look at it.

This may be a useful example. From a city of strength 5, an HQ can have max supply of 8 if it's within range of that city, even at maximum range of 4 hexes. From there, the supply it provides drops with each hex. Another HQ 2 hexes beyond that would normally be out of range of the city and would have supply of 5. But with HQ linking, it would have supply of 6 (8-2). A unit 2 hexes beyond the linked HQ would normally have supply 4 (8-4) from the first HQ, and will still have supply 4 (6-2) with the linked HQ.

So the supply linking provides some marginal benefit to the linked HQ itself, but not for any other units. With supply greater than 5, the HQ does not suffer the -1 AP penalty. That's about the only real benefit, as Terif mentioned in his example. I always assumed supply linking improved the overall supply situation somewhat, but that is not the case.

Alles klar?

[JerseyJohn]

Except for mountainous areas, which further complicates matters.

[Shaka of Carthage]

Thank you Mr B. That description I understood.

[J P Wagner]

BUMP....