JayJay_H Posted December 6, 2002 Share Posted December 6, 2002 The spanish sent a volunteer division that fought like hell around the leningrad area, why not enable the german player to get volunteer armies/corps from foreign countries for the struggle against bolshevism Spanish Blue Division Official Shield Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted December 6, 2002 Share Posted December 6, 2002 Interesting idea, JayJay_H. There were also anti-communist volunteers from Scandanavia, France and most of occupied Europe. I think it's pretty acurate, though, to generalize them as being among the German units. Although they may have involved large numbers of men during their histories, these units were normally division-sized on the front. I believe something like 60,000 Spaniards went in and out of the League, which enabled them to maintain a fighting force that averaged 10,000 men; pretty much a normal German infantry division. The Spanish League was mainly Franco's way of getting Hitler off his back after their 1940 meeting; showing him that Spain was with him in the fight against communism, but not against England. As the Germans were being rolled back, Stalin wanted Spain to be held responsible for her volunteers. Churchill countered with a subtle remark that, unlike certain other nations, Spain had not openly assisted the Reich when Britain was fighting her alone. [ December 06, 2002, 05:54 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rouge Posted December 7, 2002 Share Posted December 7, 2002 A division however isnt really sucnificant on this scale. 157 German divisons took part in barbarrossa (excuse the spelling). This scale is more on corps and armies. But maybe a forign volennteers corps would be good. There were belgian formations. The milice in France and the blue divison among others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayJay_H Posted December 8, 2002 Author Share Posted December 8, 2002 Okay, sure thing, your right Jersey - I should have known. The scale does not allow it to let volunteer grenadier brigades appear. But Germany did recruite loads of enthousiastic young men from all over europe for the idea, and not only the stormbrigade Wallonia was fighting to the last man in Pomerania in Spring of 45'. Just had in mind this should be featured in some way Collars of volunteer SS-Grenadiers [ December 08, 2002, 04:32 PM: Message edited by: JayJay_H ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted December 8, 2002 Share Posted December 8, 2002 JayJay_H If it could be represented I'd be in favor of it. The Spanish Legion was removed from service as the Russians approached the Polish border. What we need is ideas of how to represent this unit in the present game setting. As it would probably be corps-sized and an amalgamation of all these volunteers, perhaps it's advantage should be as a free addition. Let's say Germany achieves certain conditions and suddenly has this "free" corps appear with it's own insignia; I'd like it. The Allies should have a similar "free" corps if the liberate Paris, representing the numerous irregular French units that appeared as the Germans were driven back. Terrific Insignia Patches JayJay. [ December 08, 2002, 04:42 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valadictum Posted December 9, 2002 Share Posted December 9, 2002 I had an idea in the past but probably didn't express it very well. Having played Hearts of Iron a bit (all yesterday in fact and war has only just been declared - and I nodded off) I can see why people don't want that level of micro management. So I'll try and simplify things so it can remain strategic. - Recruit forces at divisional level in a force pool. - From Pool deploy in corps and army sized units - Available divisions could reflect volunteer and "slave" units the Germans can recruit (or British/French Imperial units) - Available divisions can also reflect different types of division (artillery, Anti Air etc) that would reflect in bonus'+ negatives at Corps level. - When a damaged Corps/army reinforces its divisions are returned to the pool for a period of time. - Pools can be held in any controlled city that has full strength. Probably to complex for some people, but I suppose my ideal game is something at a level between SC and Hearts of Iron, without the useless over-complexity of micro managing everything in site, just the important bits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted December 9, 2002 Share Posted December 9, 2002 Valadictum -- Interesting idea, would reflect things like the Allied parachute debacle on the three bridges, due largely because the top generals missed the Panzer Lehr Division rebuilding in the area! Mainly I'd like to see division and even brigade/regiment sized units if the game incorporated stacking; but it doesn't. Having units smaller than corps would also be good if, on a larger map, operations like Iceland were possible. I'd very much like to see these things -- Perhaps something with map scroll and zooming in and out to play on different tactical levels -- but I don't think we will in SC II, which is a different game concept. [ December 09, 2002, 12:12 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuniworth Posted December 9, 2002 Share Posted December 9, 2002 You are talkin about the blue division here?? Well then we should also bring all the slovakian divisions in to the game..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted December 10, 2002 Share Posted December 10, 2002 Kuniworth The idea was, since the game doesn't get smaller than corps, these irregular units would have to be grouped together and made into corps sized units to conform with the game scale. From there we (JayJay_H, Rouge, Vladictum) wanted to see what advantage those corps would have over regular ones. I thought the best solution would be to make them free units that would be added when one side or the other fills certain conditions. Any ideas? [ December 09, 2002, 08:56 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valadictum Posted December 11, 2002 Share Posted December 11, 2002 I was wondering if it might also allow a bit of creativity in how players set up their armies to suit their own style and then see how it works against all comers by PEBM etc. How would a German tank corp/army from player X do against Russians from player Y who uses massed artillery based corp rather than player Z who uses stock infantry based corps. Just thinking of multiplayer I suppose though it wouldn'y be worth it if it became too paper/scissors/rock etc. That would be where research and commanders would have to play a role as now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayJay_H Posted December 11, 2002 Author Share Posted December 11, 2002 Originally posted by JerseyJohn: I'd very much like to see these things -- Perhaps something with map scroll and zooming in and out to play on different tactical levels -- but I don't think we will in SC II, which is a different game concept.That would be pretty cool. Currently such a highly accurate order of battle is not part of the game, but would be a very desireable feature, leading a bit to far within the present game mechanics. The player would have countless possibilities to build up his unique armies and corps from a sort of pool (best consisting of historical formations). Like the idea of zooming in and out to switch to different command/tactical levels. The idea of having unique formations like "Nordland" or "Wiking" with their very own insignias was supported in some previous threads either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted December 11, 2002 Share Posted December 11, 2002 JayJay_H What you're describing is the most interesting concept yet! Lords of the Realm and a few other games, mainly DOS programs, had similar functions, but the lower echelon units had no particular identity. As you zoomed into the tactical screen they were just units grouped according to the weapons they used. What you're describing would be different. It would be great, but the constant arguement is that greater complications beget a less effective game engine and more inept AI. If that's the case, and at this point I'm sure it is, we won't be seeing anything as sophisticated as your idea for a long time. Maybe if no AI were involved it would be feasable; an exclusively head to head game? But for AI at this point, they're having a hard time just getting it to initiate things like Operation Sea Lion. Still, I think it's good to keep posting these ideas. If push them long enough and noticably enough maybe the games will start heading in those directions. Hopefully sooner rather than later. [ December 11, 2002, 02:05 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayJay_H Posted December 11, 2002 Author Share Posted December 11, 2002 But anyway, Jersey, so far patch 1.06 is a very nice pre-Xmas-donation right?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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