65 join% for USA/USSR is much more entertaining and "realistic".

[Blashy]

Here is what happened when I had both USSR/USA at 65% join.

Once again, the aim is to try and recreate the situation Germany was facing in WW2 which was supply shortages which made it a race to get to some major oil wells, which were in south USSR.

Poland, LC, Denmark, France, Greece and Sweeden were taken. On the DoW Sweeden turn USA joined which was in Summer 1940. USSR was at 85%, so taking another country was too risky, if USSR goes over 90% it starts to prepare for war.

When I DoW on USSR at end of July 1941 (USSR prepares for war starts), this is what I had.

I took Yugoslavia a few turns before when the coup happened.

All my axis minors had joined from May to June 41.

I had 6 chits in research.

Germans: 7 AFs, 5 panzers, 6 Armies, 4 HQs, 7 Corps ready for Barbarosa.

All 3 minor axis troops were ready.

I had 10 Italian corps behind the Germans.

On western front I had:

13 German Corps and 1 HQ, with 2 Italian Corps. I had 4 Italian Corps on Itlian cities since I could not take Gibraltar and Egypt, although I took the Suez canal.

MPPs were 580 total per turn for Axis.

USA had been preparing since July 1940 @ 180mpp with 2 turns per month that's 180*24 = 4320mpps for USA. That could easily be 2 HQs and 10 armies and 2 tanks.

UK/USA/USSR MPPs = about 780mpps, I took Odessa first turn.

That's 200mpps more for Allies.

D-Day was started august 41.

All in all, it's a pretty heated game, Germans have to press continuously and yet try and not get over stretched. I had to choose a path, no way I can start attack the whole of Russia North to South if I'm to get as many supplies as I wish. Because I choose south Findland has not joined and I had 3 German Cities and 3 Mines when Siberian transfer occured.

I can't remember having this much intensity in a game of SC.

[hellraiser]

Blashy ... not giving the soviets extra mpps via the bidding system means only 1 thing - a part cookie cutter gets postponed after barbarossa.

How are the allies supposed to defend vichy/spain?

For a no bid scenario (which i assume you played), your forces deployed vs Russia are very tough considering the early start of the war in the east. Not to mention the 15 corps in west which can delay several turns the western allies. According to what you told us here, Germany wins easily. Maybe you can add in some mpps for the reds as well because with no major threat in the east, axis will just turn west (assuming the allies display 10 armies and several HQs + decent air support, thus being far more tough than the reds) and crush the allied armies. Once the allies have lost their ground forces (built throughout a whole SC year), the game is over.

I will playtest (hotseat) your ideea anyway, just to see how it unfolds. But I fear the lack of red mpps makes the game unbalanced even with this high join percentages.

[ August 18, 2005, 12:04 AM: Message edited by: hellraiser ]

[hellraiser]

OK - hotseat test performed under Blashy's '65%'

- France fell June 30, 40

- germany captured poland, LC, Denmark,Norway, Sweden, Vichy; egypt captured spring 41

- nov 24, 40 USA joined -> immediately after sweden and vichy dows (low rediness increase for USSR allowed me to dow vichy as well - it won't happen every game this way nevertheless)

- dec 40, RO/HU joined

- chits - 2 jets, 2 lr, 1at, 1ht; results jets 1, lr 1, ht1

- got lucky and ht2 arrived - chit sold and put to jets; germany got AT1 as well;

prior to barby, germany got jets 2;

- july 6, 41 - yugo couped (pesky yugos were lazy this time), barbarossa starts:

German force deployed vs russia: 5 tanks(L2), 4 hqs, 4 air (L2 jets, LR1), 6 armies(L1), 2 corps(L1), 2 minor armies--> result of barbarossa: all border armies cut off or destroyed, 2 tanks destroyed, one red cruiser near Leningrad destroyed.

1hq and 1 air were in africa (HQ couldn't make it in time for barby) to support Greece invasion (which took place the same time with barbarossa - forces used for greece: 1 german army, 2 italian armies, italian BB)

Meanwhile, the allies were trying to capture Brest - a lot of ships, carriers, air and landing troops in the area.

UK got lvl 3 Jets and no LR, USA got lvl2 Jets and nothing more.

US army strength - 4 armies, 1 corps, 1 air, 1 HQ; several chits invested.

UK air strength - 3 lvl3 units (HQ-ed ofc)

UK ground army strength - 3 corps, canadian army.

Bergen was in uk's hands.

The main problem is: Russia is a joke having no cash to begin with. They lose all the heavy stuff during barbarossa turn (9 armies and 2 tanks is A LOT) and it will take a lot of time for them to build something that remotely resembles to an army

Let's say western allies would have built more troops instead of investing into tech - so? Germany, after the initial strike, would have just pushed so far in the east so a suitable defence line would have been in place, stuff it with a wall of corps and op move heavy stuff to rape the western allies.

No cash for Russia means no threat in the east means axis win. Even with lower tech levels.

q.e.d

[ August 18, 2005, 01:53 AM: Message edited by: hellraiser ]

[Blashy]

You got really luck on the % to get Vichy and Norway. I could not, USSR was @ 85% and a DoW on either was risking over 90% Russia.

That IMHO is the whole key, USA @ 65% is perfect.

USSR, 3 times I've tried it now and everytime I am @ 85-87% join after taking everything but Norway, Vichy, Iraq, Spain and Portugal.

I've never been low enough to take Vichy and Norway. I could have but barbarosa would have started with a lack of big units for at least 3 turns until they arrive.

Maybe I'm not as tic tac toe as the veterans here for cookie cutter, although I thought I did a good job all 3 times.

[hellraiser]

Yes I got very lucky with the %.

The problem is still the barbarossa turn and the lack of red cash.

The reds lose 3k mpps in one blow (okay maybe without sweden and vicky, 1-2 armies may survive but do not count on it) leaving them with no possibility to retaliate anytime soon.

And even without those minors, axis is very strong if they are to face only the western allies.

If the allies don't D-Day early, axis will take their time and capture the missing minors-same old story.

Try adding into the mix some 1.5-2k mpps for Russia and the game might be very tough for axis and maybe more interesting.

[Blashy]

In the other thread I suggest we try 65%USA/70%USSR.

You might be right that USSR might need a boost.

Or maybe have a higher join for USA, after all USA had been preparing for war since 39, not full gear but the 180mpp in SC would IMHO represent this.

Playing with 70/70 would really display how badly balance the game is setup initially... yet we still love your game HC

[hellraiser]

70/70 might be just nice with no bid.

[Blashy]

Testing with 70/70 is working out much better, even vs. the dumb AI.

USA joined begining of July 40. By then I had Poland, LC, Denmark and Sweden.

I DoW on USSR begining of August 1941, they were at 100%.

Just before that I had taken Vichy France and Yugoslavia, I also took Gibraltar (5AFs from Algeria and Battleship)and the Suez Canal.

@ Barbarosa I had Hungary on my side and Romania joined after my 1st turn of DoW USSR, it took Bulgaria another 3 turns before it joined.

I had 5 tanks, 5AFs, 2chits in research, 5Armies, 4 HQs and 1 corps from Germany with the support of 10 italian corps and all the available minors.

I had 10 German Corps and 1 HQ on the western front.

By the time I had 2 Russian cities and 3 mines USA /UK was already in D-Day mode and had the whole coast of france lined up with troops. Had it been a human player, it would have meant the loss of brest and about 6-8 troops successfully landing on the 1st turn. I had another Russian city and was about 2 turns away from a second. By then Western Allies would have a good foothold on the French coast.

Basically becoming a race against time for both sides.