Sub war and the Atlantic's size...

[John DiFool]

I know the map has some sort of hard-coded size

limit (dunno the particulars-tho it does seem

strange to me in this era of 512+ megs of RAM),

but I wonder how the current sub rules

would play out if

1. The Atlantic was its full size (from the

British Isles to Canada), and

2. There were more hexes which could be inter-

dicted for MPPs by subs (leaving surface raiders

out of the equation for a second)...

Think about it: the distance from Ireland to

Newfoundland should be about twice what it is

in SC. With all that extra space (and additional

convoy routes-however you want to implement that),

subs would be able to hide very effectively.

Of course there is that pesky Atlantic gap: how big

would that be for L0 long-range bombers vs. L5?

I'll go offline and try to figure that one out:

the long-range aircraft tech might have to be

tweaked a bit (or add in Iceland and/or the

Azores). I know that if Spain is occupied, the

Jerries can use their Amerika bombers to bomb US

soil...

John DiFool

[Kuniworth]

The whole problem with the sub war is that no one gains from fighting it. The germans have not the resource to produce subs to destroy around 10-15 MMP:s per turn, instead they destroy valuable corps at the cost of 100 on the russian front. The british on the other hand make a bad affair if they produce or lose battleship-step at the value of 20 or more for sinking some lonely subs.

[Flashblade]

The detection options also need to be fixed up a bit.

A U-Boat should not get by suprise contacts. This would allow them much greater freedom of movement, as the Atlantic could no longer be locked off with 4 or 5 ships.

Think about it, the first thing a U-Boat would do when it spots an enemy ASW group is dive and head around them.

Research should also play a larger role in the sub war. Sonar advances should be required to really make surface ships effective. The same should be true for planes, radar advances should be needed to make them effective.

[Norse]

Originally posted by Flashblade:

(snip)... as the Atlantic could no longer be locked off with 4 or 5 ships.

Remember the scale of things, it's not 1 submarine that was caught by suprise against 1 battleship.

We are talking a wolfpack of 30ish submarines or so, and a big fleet of different vessels (destroyers, battleships etc).

[Rouge]

And how many battleships or battlecruisers went chaseing after subs? destroyer/corvette flottilas or squadrons should be an option.

[Flashblade]

Originally posted by Norse:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Flashblade:

(snip)... as the Atlantic could no longer be locked off with 4 or 5 ships.

Remember the scale of things, it's not 1 submarine that was caught by suprise against 1 battleship.

We are talking a wolfpack of 30ish submarines or so, and a big fleet of different vessels (destroyers, battleships etc).</font>

[RicKhan]

Just an idea,

What if Subs were harder to hit as they went down in strenght, say 5% per point. Which is just a value for now.

A sub at full strenght L0 tech is 25% able to avoid attack. If attacked and hurt to value 5 it would then have a 50% chance to avoid attack.

Give the sub a chance to return to Port and refit or just continue convoy raiding until sunk.

I'm not including sonar values for this example, just an idea.

[Norse]

Originally posted by Flashblade:

Sure i'll give you that one, but the Wolfpacks did not travel all bunched up. When they decided to head for home they split up to maximize their chances of escape.

I would imagine that we don't see this kind of micromanagement in this game, because the naval sub-unit represents the military value in that area, and not a fixed number of submarines.

The allies had to use the convoy system to against U-Boat attack. This is simply not represented at all. The U-Boats are devastating if properly used against other naval assets, but are almost useless at what they were actually used for: attack allied merchant shipping.

It is possible to destroy 40ish British MPP's per turn by using submarines alone (see if you can breake this record, I wonder what the limit is). About the convoy system, other's have pointed out the same thing. Search back and see if you can find this discussion somewhere.

~Norse~

[Flashblade]

Originally posted by Norse:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Flashblade:

Sure i'll give you that one, but the Wolfpacks did not travel all bunched up. When they decided to head for home they split up to maximize their chances of escape.

I would imagine that we don't see this kind of micromanagement in this game, because the naval sub-unit represents the military value in that area, and not a fixed number of submarines.

</font>