Question

[Lucky zebra]

Is it true that the axis minors dont join if you attack wichy or spain?

[Oak]

Hungary, Romania and Bulgaria won't join the Axis if you declare war on Spain before they join. Declaring war on Vichy France makes no difference as to whether the Axis minors join.

[Terif]

For Spain: yes.

Hungary and Bulgaria dont join any more if you attack Spain, therefore its better to wait until they have joined before attacking.

Vichy has no effect on the minors, you can conquer it any time.

[Terif]

Oak was faster

[Lucky zebra]

Thx oak and terif for the answer (both of you get creds )

[pzgndr]

The Axis minors actually depend on the status of Spain, either if attacked by Axis or ... also if Spain joins the Axis if UK is near surrender.

I had one interesting game where Spain activated after Romania randomly joined Axis but BEFORE Hungary and Bulgaria did. USSR entered the war and attacked Romania, but Germany could not provide support to Romania without declaring war on Hungary and fighting through. Ended up losing Romania in that one.

This seems to be a simple binary rule. If Spain becomes active, then the Axis minors do not. Not sure what happens if Allies attack Spain prior to the Axis minors entering (why??), but I suspect the result would be the same. On the other hand, if UK and France can manage to attack and defeat Spain and this results in the Axis minors NOT joining, THAT could be interesting. Has anyone attempted this??

[ July 20, 2003, 09:23 AM: Message edited by: Bill Macon ]

[Oak]

Oak may be faster, but Terif is better (actually, by far the best) and the true master of SC.

[pzgndr]

Quick update. I tried the "Spanish Gambit" (gotta love these tacky names) with the default 1939 scenario and normal settings. France held off the German AI long enough for the Allies to complete the conquest of Spain by late summer 1940. As suspected, the Axis minors in the Balkans did not activate and this hurt Germany. Going into Barbarossa in September 1941, Germany did not have its allies and additional MPPs, while UK was collecting extra MPPs for Spain. The MPP differential was too great for the Axis to overcome, and attrition warfare took its toll.

Considering the challenge of getting enough forces in place fast enough to invade Spain and defeat it (and without HQ's this is a challenge), this probably won't work well against tougher AI settings or a competent human. As it was, the game was interesting until it ended in spring 1943 with an Allied victory.

One strange thing happened. After USSR invaded Romania, liberated Yugoslavia, and eventually defeated Hungary and Germany, Bulgaria activated when Germany surrendered. This was unexpected and I missed whatever message appeared announcing their ambitious entry. One turn they're neutral and next turn they're at war with the Soviet steamroller in high gear. Very odd.

[Kuniworth]

That Rumania and Hungary did´nt join could it have something to do with wether France is still alive or not?

[Oak]

Bill,

Even if the Allies cannot take Spain, I'm sure there will be plenty of players that will jump at the chance to deny Germany the advantage of Hungary, Bulgaria & Romania by declaring war on Spain. The key disadvantage for the Allies is that they will probably lose Gibralter.

Oak

[pzgndr]

Kuniworth, in my game France was defeated before the normal entry date of the Axis minors so that didn't have anything to do with it.

Oak, you have a point. The Allies defeated Spain prior to the normal entry date of the Axis minors, so I can't confirm if just being at war with Spain is sufficient. (Another playtest opportunity!) As you say, simply denying Germany its allies may be worth a DOW against Spain even if you lose it and Gibralter.

I did notice that once France falls and neutral Vichy France is created, the Axis have a serious dilemma on their hands. Fighting through the bottleneck against Brits with HQ and air support is tough. DOW against Vichy to open up the border raises USA readiness about 20%. Leaving the UK alone in Spain provides the Allies an opportunity to DOW against Vichy after USA enters and at a time of their convenience. And of course loss of allies means loss of MPPs, so Germany struggles anyway you look at it.

I don't believe this is a game breaker. As I mentioned, it should be tough for the UK to defeat Spain and gain plunder with higher AI settings or against another human. Giving Spain and Gibralter to the Germans and losing valuable UK units in the process may make loss of minor allies tolerable to the Axis. It is a gambit for the Allied player, and one we could have mentioned in the Strategy Guide. (Oh well.)

[Oak]

Bill,

You can include this in the next version of the Strategy Guide. By the way, my deepest thanks and appreciation for your hard work in putting that Guide together.

Oak

[Iron Ranger]

Bump - inresponce t Kuni's other post. This one has the info you wanted. Should be placed in the stratigy guide or in the newbie section.

[pzgndr]

I'm back. Dan Fenton and I are already talking about an errata file for the Strategy Guide and will get the first update out shortly. We can continue to update a text file as things come up, and that's easier than revising the PDF file.

One thing that's come out of this particular issue is how "binary" the current political model is. The on/off triggers are relatively simple. It works fine for most normal games, but weird strategies like Allied DOW against Spain can appear as game "flaws" as Kuniworth pointed out on the other thread. Terif gave a good discussion of the pros and cons, and I'm also inclined to believe that the current game politics work OK.

But, the whole political model needs to be looked at for SC2. There's a lot more that could be done with fuzzy logic and randomness (and perhaps with some sort of diplomacy actions by the players) to produce a broader spectrum of political results. "Knowing" that doing X always results in Y happening is not very realistic, nor good for replayability. This would be a good topic for another thread later.