How i finally beat Terif AAR

[Codename Condor]

Just joined the Z-League and i beat the master!! cant believe it. Every1 that beats terif should make a AAR for others to learn. So, heres the story:

Codename Condor: Axis

Terif: Allies

Bid 300 (1:8 system)

Bid was high and he was kinda anxious to take allies i knew he was gonna try to invade Spain just before the fall of france. i knew what to do.

I knew i had to rush into france no matter the casualties, time is gold if Spain is in danger. Also i knew i had to keep Ireland out of his greedy hands as long as possible. Thats why my subs werent raiding this time, instead they head right to Ireland. There, they make an strike against the BB defending the CV, in two turns i sent it to the bottom of the sea.

I conquered LC turn 2, and i destroyed the french army in the forest, Denmark and Poland fell in turn 3.

With manstein, a new air and a new tank i rushed into france inflicting heavy damage. He was defending France with only 2 Uk corps but still terif defends very well france, this time i changed my strategy and went all along the seashore, i didnt care about damage i wanted to activate Italy ASAP, cut Paris and cut supplies. And i did it, it only costed 1 tank, the hero that activated Italy. He tried to cut the seashore access and i was recieving some damage from the bastard RN, i didnt care. Next turn, i inserted 1 tank deep in french soil cutting Paris supplies off. He then declared war on Spain and invaded it. He managed to killed only 1 army. Next turn not only did i conquer Paris but i rushed with 2 tanks to Bordeaux, down there was Wavell, who took 1 sweet touch by my panzer. Tank that got killed next turn due to that horrible habit terif has of using the instant-trasnsport-from-the-same-city-and strike-in-the-ass, that raged me and i was so please as to give him back some of his medicine next turn, killing the two corps blocking spain and giving another touch to Wawell. He didnt conquered valencia nor Bilbao, i operated there 2 AF not letting him take ANY spanish cities. In the MED i launched all the italian fleet to kill his MED navy, as usual he got so lucky as to get 2 free french cruisiers!! This man has a lucky star somewhere...Anyway, i knew this game was gonna need a Sealion and i didnt care about Italian fleet casualties. they sank a CV and a BB, in a few turns all the italian fleet was dead, also i inserted italian transports by the seashore to get his 2 AFs north of madrid, AF that was already recieving damage from the spanish corps.

He managed to operate Wawell to gibraltar but i killed the rest, 2 army, 2 AFs, 3 corps. he killed only 1 more spanish corps and my newly bought AF in Bilbao, soon replaced for another 1.

At the same time i was transporting 3 armies and Bock ready to get to England and i sent an italian transport to scapa flow as a bait to kill his navy, he went for it and i killed another 2 BBs there. He killed 1 cruisier.

I operated all the air to LC and get ready for the Sealion. In August 1940, a transmission reached axis HQs: "The Condor has landed", from there, piece of cake, by Novemeber 1940, i managed to kill every unit in british soil and almost every ship. A new order in Europe has arrived. USA readiness didnt reach 50%, declaring war on Spain is solved by a Sealion.

"He, who will dare to invade Spain shall recieve high punishment and furious vengueance"

Condor.

[jon_j_rambo]

Terif --- You invaded Spain before the Fall of France & you were the Allies? I'm trying to make heads or tails of this game.

CodenameCondor --- Hey, congrats on your win. Looks like you thought of something new, thus no longer the Clone. The Condor flies on his own wings & no longer in the nest.

How did I beat Terif? With RACK (Rambo Axis Carrier Kracker)

[ August 19, 2003, 10:49 AM: Message edited by: jon_j_rambo ]

[Kuniworth]

You are class Condor and a great SC player. Congratulations to your victory in Ryder cup by the way and Im looking forward to fight you in SC-league someday.

[Kuniworth]

Yes I wonder too, whats the allied benefit of attacking Spain in force? Destroying spain units and delay axis conquest?

I can think of tons of problems with this so therefore I would gladly like Terif to share his thoughts on this strategy and timing.

Too bad allied attack on Poland most certainly will bring Spain into the axis cause. Otherwise it would be a great staging plattform for a succesful Spain war.

[ August 19, 2003, 11:55 AM: Message edited by: Kuniworth ]

[Some_God]

Good job condor. Now you have given hope to those that have no hope.

[Codename Condor]

Thx Kuni, rambo for yer words,

hey i like u rambo!! u can come over my house and f* my syster!! - from full metal jacket.

if im not clone anymore we can meet again in the battlefield.

With the new bid system, when i first heard of the Spanish strategy i thought it was almost a winner, and terif has being testing it for way too long, perfectioning, if u are not aware of it u can be facing a nightmare. Sealion tuff (if not impossible) with the plunder from Spain&Portugal, very easy to block the axis forces in germany, only way to DoW on Vicky, but beware because u will not be able to take Algeria, so more ships&mmps for the allies. Of course in the end due to supply Spain will fall

BUT:

Plunder for Spain&Portugal lost, DoW on Vicky badly carried on, time, mmps and the more important thing: ROMANIA,BULGARIA & HUNGARY WONT JOIN AXIS!!! with the new bid system US is not important, but russia can kick axis ass with the extra mmp plus Finland&Romania.

Im afraid if terif manages to improve it i dont see how he can lose again. If he doesnt (aka its not possible) then its a bit of luck and he reckons he can lose so he will never do it again. If u r facing it i recommend: small bid, defend ireland ALWAYS (in my game Ireland survived the whole war), and make a real Blitz tru France.

[Codename Condor]

Thx Some_god too, we all have hope to beat terif but he keeps dennying us the reward.

I thought about another strategy: New bid system 1:4:4, 1:2:6, 1:4:2 then USA is important again and u have to think twice before DoW on Ireland, Spain&Portugal.

What do u mean by Allied attack Poland Kuni?

[Terif]

Codename Condor played very well.

This game shows: never do exactly what the opponent expects or you will loose .

Especially after he had luck at the LC border and could kill some french units (Ardennes) easily, I should have changed strategy. It was to be expected that France would fall early.

But I used the old strategies so often against Condor, I wanted to do something different at all costs, in this case: too high costs . The Spain thing is risky, but if successful creates a totally different and exciting game.

Also I made a lot of mistakes in the defence of France: I attacked his units and killed some of them, but with the Spain strategy the most important is to delay Germany in France. More important I didnt abandon Maginot line after I saw he went along the coast. With these units I could have delayed the fall of France 2-3 turns, enough to take Spain. Even one more turn would have been enough: only one UK corps was missing to prevent the cut off by the german tank...

I gambled and lost, but still it was fun trying something different

[ August 19, 2003, 01:32 PM: Message edited by: Terif ]

[Codename Condor]

Hehe i told u in the beginning! dont try to invade Spain! Spain and Ireland wont surrender. Man, wont u listen?

U did play very well also, u only made 2 attacks on france, u kill a tank and a corps, that tank activated Italy u had to kill it! . And u cut the seashore access after that, and make another wall, i think it wasnt bad idea. And that great scape of Spain of Wavell, i just couldnt believe it!.

The last time we played u tried to do the same: to invade Spain, but u chickened as i was going to take Paris too soon, i did Sealion anyway and UK surrendered but i didnt do it well and...US entered the war, in this game u prolly thought u already have gone too far, spent too many mmps, BB sunk, Ireland alive and experienced... another Sealion was gonna happen and this time US might not ahve entered the war.

So u had to do it, u only needed 1 more turn and things coulda changed. I think is a good allies' tactic, dont know if a winner or not, ive tested only once and it needs perfect timing, i used more troops than u but u didnt get Ireland...and im sure u had tested enuff to know whast basically needed.

I am using now a similar strategy that can also work well: the Baltic Gambit, thats it, destroy the axis fleet and launch an invasion on Norway, then maybe on Sweden, before fall of France also, needs less troops and easy to withdraw if something goes wrong. I think with this kind of bid u dont lose too much invading neutrals countries, US doesnt matter, maybe its time for another type of bid system?

[Kuniworth]

Ah Terif, u remember two weeks ago you kept saying to me that invading Spain is a bad move? Now your using it, game killer as I said right?

[Terif]

Kuniworth:

No Spain is not a "game killer". It has advantages and disadvantages and doesnt provide a real advantage for Allies. The most positive about it is:

It creates a totally different, more exciting game, that makes much more fun. Allies really can do something and fight all over the world and in the Med. Russia will not be crushed in the first 1-2 turns like usual.

It is like every new strategy: at the beginning very effective, but after a while it can be countered too easily and you have to develope a new strategy again...

Condor:

I have improved the Spain thing. Just beaten Zapp with the new version, very unlikely that France falls too early now

[zappsweden]

End of the Axis Cookie-Cutter strategy?

Dawn of the Allied Cookie-Cutter strategy?

[zappsweden]

Terif has beaten me twice now with this Spain gambit. It is very powerful but requires precise timing from allies. It reminds me of the Rambo Rome invasion.

Maybe there is a way to counter it. Sea-lion?

There are many "What-If's" at the moment.

[ August 20, 2003, 10:36 AM: Message edited by: zappsweden ]

[Terif]

The Spain invasion is only powerful if Axis make a lot of mistakes. Usually Allies have to leave Spain very soon or they will receive high losses.

Allies use all their early mpps for Spain and the plunder for defence against Sealion. So in the end they are very weak in tech and air.

The advantage is that Axis usually dont grow so strong before Barbarossa and they have a worser starting front for Russia. Because they cant attack Romania before Barbarossa. Russia really doesnt like it and readiness goes through the roof...

Concerning the two Zapp games: The first one he gave up without reason after he conquered France, where he needed a bit longer than usual. But Axis had not the big advantage they usually have...

The second one he gave up after he declared war to Romania and russian readiness increased 22%...besides he didnt get Vichy and Norway for a long time (Norway invasion failed without sufficient air support).

[Codename Condor]

Zapp, this is not a game killer nothing to do with rome invasion at all, dont try to compare em. Not at all it should be banned cause there are lots of factors involved, and luck is 1 of em. Rome Invasion=100% probability to knock Italy out of war, no point in trying to compare.

In two times terif has tried to do the spanish invasion in both i successfully conquered UK, the problem is he is still developing it so we must find ways to counter it more accurately.

The Spanish invasion is a natural move due to the 1:8 bid system. Change the bid system and its effectiveness decrease a lot.

Terif, im telling about a new bid system cause i knew u were gonna improve the strategy . I was surprised u used few troops with me and a weak defense in france with only 2 Uk corps, 1 more coprs in france give u the time to build up a better invasion, Ireland is important as i realised.

All u say about funnier game, more exciting, russia wont be crushed in 1 turn,... sounds very good, but well, u know, the fun will be for the allied player watching how russia destroy slowly the axis, in my opinion.

[Terif]

Codename Condor:

The fun is not "watching Russia slowly destroying Axis" - Only if Axis does it wrong . Despite Spain, Axis is very strong and will conquer the minors (Hungary, Romania and Bulgaria) when it attacks Russia.

The difference is that they cant destroy or cut off all 9 border armies, 2 tanks and the russian air like in the standard game...

2-3 turns after Barbarossa started, Axis should have mpp advantage as usual, but their starting position is not as strong as usual. Therefore Russia really has the chance to fight and strategy decides the game, not brute force at the first Barbarossa turn.

[ August 20, 2003, 01:06 PM: Message edited by: Terif ]

[Codename Condor]

Terif, of course Russia has the chance to fight...But u r going to my point, no armies cut off, no air destroyed, no tanks killed, then why the 1:8 bid sytem??? was this system first implemented to counter what with the spanish move is not gonna happen anymore? Russia become too powerful and axis too weakened. 1:8 is too much!

[Terif]

Condor:

1. In case you would be right and Spain would be a real advantage for Allies: The Spain thing is only done very rarely. If you reduce bids, then you are forced to do it every time or you will loose against Axis with a low bid.

2. But this is not the case. The Spain thing is risky and doesnt provide much advantage for Allies. Only the war goes in a different direction than usual. And Russia still looses 5-6 border armies, 1 tank + 1 airfleet... they only have a better defence line. Frontlines are at a different location, but still Axis has a huge advantage without a high bid (between 2 experienced players !).

[Codename Condor]

My opinion is: thing quite desfavorable for axis as they have to DoW on Hungary before Russia enters the war, they lose the important armies and coprs from minors that were very handy to take greece, and yugo. Yugo cope will not happen before russia so another great handicap, and so on... But i dont discuss with u, if u think russia wont become a huge problem it will probably be so, its just what i think, i havent played/tested it so im only guessing, im saying it looks handicaped to axis thats all.

[Terif]

You dont get the minors units, but you get the plunder for them. In average 300, thats nearly the value of the units you dont get, but now you have german units, supported by Hqs and not minor units that cannot really fight.

And Yugoslavia: first you have a good chance that they coup and if you want to be sure, then invade Greece and they will coup before Barbarossa nearly for sure.

BTW: bids belong to the players and everyone can and should decide on his own how much he is willing to bid and which bid system to use.

[zappsweden]

Originally posted by Terif:

Condor:

The Spain thing is only done very rarely.

The Spain thing is risky and doesnt provide much advantage for Allies.

It is done rarely since most players do not master it yet. Soon the Spain gambit will be the mainstream strategy.

The Spain thing IS risky yes but DO NOT SAY it does not provide a big lead for Allies. It does.

Advantages:

1) UK get Spain+Portugal plunder = roughly 550 MPP and Axis loses those 550 MPP. That is 1100 MPP difference!

2) The experience Allies will gain for navy, carriers and units when attacking those countries

3) UK get some MPP during the turns before Axis reconquer those countries.

4) MOST IMPORTINGLY, Axis get lower MPP all the way to Barbarossa. Yes, they get Spain earlier but they lose more MPP in the minors than they gain in Spain/Portugal.

5) Axis miss out on the minor units. That is 2 armies and 3 corps.

6) Axis makes a weaker Barbarossa since the eastern front line is narrowed.

7) Allies will hold Vichy France for some turns, collecting MPP. Axis will go through Vichy towards Spain and not have Algeria for a while.

Disadvantages:

1) USA readiness drops and will join later.

2) Axis gain experience in Spain

3) Russia readiness will be a little lower since Spain is not DOW by Axis.

Conclusion 1:

When Spain Gambit is optimized, Allies will have better invasion, delay and evacuation in Spain. In my latest game vs Terif I rushed into eastern Spain before he had a chance to shut the door. If Spain falls too early, Allies can shut that door and delay Axis severely.

I do not like a game where IF Paris fall early THEN UK is doomed in Spain. IF Paris fall late THEN Axis is losing since Spain is a shut door taking to long time to break.

The game should be decided on the front-lines between the major nations not by smart politics. That is my 5 cents.

Sea-lion counter is not so easy. The MPP allies have in Spain (HQ, Canadian Army, Canadian corps, 2 extra corps, Army) is about 1200 MPP. I do not count the air fleets, they operate back to UK very fast. Remember that the plunder give about 600 MPP and that the increased income will give 40 MPP for Allies per turn, even more when Paris is Allied.

Conclusion 2:

The bid system was made to enable UK to compensate the weak UK mid-game. They have so little MPP compared to Axis after fall of France. However, the extra MPP decrease in importance the more time flies by. That mean, UK gain most by using it early on. Doing gambits before Paris is taken is highly rewarding but not so historical accurate. LC gambit and Spain gambit are strengtened by the usual high UK bid levels. Problem is, the best thing was if UK got their bonus AFTER fall of France. That is the point where UK is weakest. Unfortunately, the editor does not allow it, so we will have to put up with those nasty gambits. Dammit, could not SC editor include off-map MPP production? That would solve all the Russia and UK problem. UK could have 30 MPP off-map MPP and Russia about 100 off-map MPP instead of the MPP BONUS they start with. Bid system would not be needed then.

[ August 21, 2003, 03:13 AM: Message edited by: zappsweden ]

[Shaka of Carthage]

... Dammit, could not SC editor include off-map MPP production? That would solve all the Russia and UK problem. UK could have 30 MPP off-map MPP and Russia about 100 off-map MPP instead of the MPP BONUS they start with. Bid system would not be needed then.

As has been pointed out by JerseyJohn and others, giving Iraq to the UK solves the UK "problem" as you perceive it, as well as making the Middle East as strategically important as it was.

Can't say I agree that Russia needs an additional 100 MPPs off-map. Thier production is already over inflated, at the expense of the US. Besides, Russia's "off-map" MPPs is called Finland.

I think Terif has already realized this, if the rest of you haven't already. The Bid system, with all its variations, isn't needed to "balance the game". What its used for is to expand the playability options. No matter how many "tweaks" are used, you will always have some sort of Bid system since the more expeirenced players use it to give them more choices. Or as Terif puts it, "make it more fun".

[Terif]

Zapp:

You are right about the editor:

It would be better if we had the possibility for off map production or to set a time when the bonus appears. But thats not possible in the current version...

About Spain:

Like with every new strategy you have to learn how to react and to counter it. You have been faced 3 times now with the Spain thing: 2 times you gave up in 1940 without really to try to conquer Spain. The 3rd one after you made some "newbie" faults: you failed taking Norway in one turn, as well as taking Vichy. And then you DoWed Romania and attacked from a one hex front in the north !! You gave up in March 1941 long before Barbarossa.

So be angry with yourself and not angry that I developed a new strategy and that you have to think about how to counter it yourself. It is no fun doing the same in every game, waiting that the opponent is perfectioning his moves and when something goes wrong he surrenders and the same starts from the beginning...Game should not be over when the result is on the knives edge and all is open, only because you dont have a clear advantage any more...

The spice of SC is: developing new strategies and counters. Expecting the unexpected, doing different things, trying new things and to give a good fight until there is really no chance any more.

I have used the Spain thing now against some other players and no one had problems taking Spain. They did NOT attack Vichy without preparations and Spain fell usually 5-6 turns after France. UK has no chance blocking the way against the high experienced german air. In France they gained a lot of experience without interceptions. All UK forces/mpp are in Spain and usually they loose a good part of it.

Consequence:

If you dont give up all the time without playing, then you will see that it really ends in a very good and balanced (between equal players) game. Of course if Axis do it wrong and make a lot of faults like you did in our 3 games, then the Spain strategy is really a big advantage for Allies. But normally it is not.

Allies loose nearly as many mpps in combat and from operating/transporting as they receive from plunder and ressources. And they cant research the first year like they normally do. USA comes in many turns later than normal and this compensates Axis for the lost plunder. The lost minor units are compensated by the plunder from the minors later.

So e.g. if you count 1100 mpp plunder advantage for UK, then count also the ~20 +12 +12 =44 % readiness loss from USA. That makes 44/4 = 11 turns later USA. 11 x 180 = 1980 mpp disadvantage for Allies.

And with this strategy Allies need a weaker Barbarossa or they have lost. UK is weak due to Spain and in the normal game Axis crushes Russias main force within 2-3 turns. But in the Spain strategy Russia has to fight and has to be a strong opponent.

And this is what happens: it is not so easy any more to crush Russia, but Axis has much more time to fight their way east before USA joins, UK has recovered from the Spain thing and western Allies can start an invasion...On the other side Russia has the chance to get some neutrals (if they are still neutral )and grow strong. This is something that depends on which player is the better commander .

[ August 21, 2003, 05:32 AM: Message edited by: Terif ]

[zappsweden]

Originally posted by Terif:

About Spain:

Like with every new strategy you have to learn how to react and to counter it.

So be angry with yourself and not angry that I developed a new strategy and that you have to think about how to counter it yourself. It is no fun doing the same in every game, waiting that the opponent is perfectioning his moves and when something goes wrong he surrenders and the same starts from the beginning...Game should not be over when the result is on the knives edge and all is open, only because you dont have a clear advantage any more...

The spice of SC is: developing new strategies and counters. Expecting the unexpected, doing different things, trying new things and to give a good fight until there is really no chance any more.

Consequence:

If you dont give up all the time without playing, then you will see that it really ends in a very good and balanced (between equal players) game.

I have ripped out some of the statements you made. When u think of it, the above statements could also have been said about the Rome invasion. Think about it.

The question everyone has ask themself is, will the Spain gambit be standard hence making regular strategy obselete in the end?

That the minors wont join is freaky, and that is the reason i find the Spain invasion a flaw in the diplomacy of the game.

[Codename Condor]

First of all, i dont want to be misunderstood,i want to make clear that i do like the Spanish invasion move, every new move makes the game more interesting, u can get bored of usual tactics, i have only concerns about the bid system with this strategy.

New moves: they keep the game alive, every new move is welcome, but if we see that a new move make the game biased then theres a need to compensate, bid system can do it.

We will have a scenario with no more new moves, everything tried, then change the bid system, change displacement of troops (give germany another sub, tank, give uk persia...) and we will have more new tactics.

What its clear: u have to be very careful with axis if this move happens, 1 bad move and u r dead. If u attack Norway without air u r gambling, DoW on Romania before Russia is no good, Vicky is dangerous, Yugo uncertainty is a pain in the ass, u will have to attack greece to grant a reasonable % of Yugo coup (u need some plunder, u know), u need italian troops for that (minor troops no longer available), if italian troops get wasted in Spain/Vicky u will have to delay the invasion. Axis wont have to DoW on Spain true(Portugal is usually invaded in the same turn as Russia), but u will need DoW on Greece&Hungary to get mmp so Russia will enter sooner, Persia delayed and in allies hands?. This is a possible scenario also it depends what u r doing with the Italian troops&fleet.