tips and tricks?

[googabooga]

tell me if iam missing something but i have a feeling (from reading this forum) that most people "prefer" (in a pbem game, playing axis, all politics random) taking denmark and norway before france in the 1939 scenario... i dont really see the point of taking denmark and norway since they dont really contribute anything to the german war effort. the DoWs just make US and USSR more angry. i know norway has some nice ports near great britain but is it really worth it? how about poland, france, hungary, romania and spain? in that order.

maybe iam missing something really obvious and besides: one explanation for my moronic strategy could be that me and my pbem partner are just regular stark raving mad village idiots...

-antti

p.s. sorry, first post

p.p.s. this enough reason for a "strategic command: tips and tricks" (as in combat mission: tips and tricks)

[Randell Daigre]

Sssshhhhh! If you put all the crazy ideas out in the open, then the sane people know what to expect.

[Titan]

harala there are alot of different strategies you could try,but my way of thinking regarding the smaller nations is that even though likes Yugoslavia and denmark have one resourse center that contribute to your economy and norway has about 4 but collectivley they all add up.And those nations can be taken with very little ease.

And as far as making USSR and USA angry by the time im done im reasobly ready for them.

The USA needs alot of lead up time before it can be a major threat considering its starting military strenght and the USSR aint quite ready to conduct offensive ops when it enters.Soeven if they do enter the war earlier the germans can still deal to them and having those smaller nations all add up.I also think there are a few good spin offs as well,im not sure about this but whenever i take yugoslavia and Greece the minor Axis nations seem to join .Romania seems to see the light once yuigoslavia falls and certainly when greece is gone.

[ August 17, 2002, 09:53 PM: Message edited by: Titan ]

[Old Patch]

Romania will jopin the Axis if you leave it alone (unless you take Spain and then they may not), and with two oil wells and a capitol Romania will eventually contribute 80 MPP's to your ecomony every turn (plus two Armies and a Corps). If you invade Romania you have to waste the time, troops, and possible losses to conquer it, and then as a conquered minor you only get 80% maximim production - 64 MPP instead of 80.

[Gunslingr3]

Denmark, Norway, and Sweden are worth taking because of the plunder and resources taken. The cost for Denmark and Norway combined is usually at most two or three points of repair. Sweden is a little tougher, but worth it considering the resources. The more turns you are getting those extra MPPs (not to mention the plunder) the better. Having Scandanavia also helps for some reason with the supply of Finland, making the taking of Leningrad easier.

I usually declare on the Russians before they do on me, and when that's the case I'm beating them back hard enough to not worry about the Americans.

Gunslinger

[googabooga]

Old Patch: very good sales pitch (hey it rhymes)

you sold your idea...

[googabooga]

Originally posted by Gunslingr3:

...Having Scandanavia also helps for some reason with the supply of Finland, making the taking of Leningrad easier.

Gunslinger

it would be nice to know all political and special effects such as the one above (all politics random) i.e. how is it possible (or if its possible at all) to make sweden join the axis etc etc...

i know there are some insanely smart people on (in?) these boards and i bet someone has made some sort of probability matrix... SO STOP HOGGING IT AND JUST POST IT

[Wolfe]

Ok. A few relationships I've noticed.

As Axis (on default settings in the '39 campaign):

* Some success in France will bring the Italians into the Axis camp.

* Declaring war on Vichy France annoys the US more than the Soviets.

* Declare war on USA, Baltics, or Turkey and Russia will throw a tizzy fit (30 or more points added to war readiness).

* Declare war on Russia and the USA throws a tizzy fit (same 30 or so points).

* Declaring war on Sweden, Spain, Switzerland, or Bulgaria will hike the USA's war readiness by ~10-15 points.

* Invading Yugoslavia and having Axis troops nearby helps encourage Hungary, Bulgaria, and Romania to sign up to the Axis cause.

* Setting one foot onto Russian soil seems to bring in the Finns most of the time.

* Declaring war on Spain will all but guarantee Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, and Finland will not join the Axis voluntarily. And vice-versa.

* Invade England with some success and Russia will increase its war readiness rapidly. USA too, I believe.

- Chris

[ August 18, 2002, 08:59 PM: Message edited by: Wolfe ]

[Guest Mike]

Originally posted by Wolfe:

Ok. A few relationships I've noticed.

* Setting one foot onto Russian soil seems to bring in the Finns most of the time.

I've been playing the 39 on Intermediate/+1 and the bleeding Finns didn't join until I'd taken Moscow!!

And that was mid 43 or somethign like that - it had been a fairly long arduous slog toget there - no great blitzkrieg as I had spent a fortune in a/c and corps to keep the yanks out of France.

And when the Finns do join they'er as weak as and usually get over-run quiet quickly if hte Sov's are in good shape. I think the idea of making Helsinki a 10 pt city might be worth it so they can have some supply and reinforcements!!

* Invade England with some success and Russia will increase its war readiness rapidly. USA too, I believe.

And Spain will join you..usually!

[Randell Daigre]

Posted by gunslinger3:

Having Scandanavia also helps for some reason with the supply of Finland, making the taking of Leningrad easier.

I never noticed an effect on supply levels in Finland from this (I'll have to keep an eye open for it). However, I do know that taking Sweden brings the cities and mines in Norway up to a value of 8. The reasoning behind this is that the water supply route from Sweden to Denmark is much shorter than the Norway-Denmark route. Perhaps the same reasoning would apply to Finland.

(Edit)

P.S.- To add to Wolfe's list:

*An invasion of Britain which is making progress will bring Spain in on the Axis side

*Supposedly there is a way to get Turkey in on the Axis side, but I've never heard exactly what it is.

*As far as I know there is *no* way to get Switzerland, Ireland, Iraq, Portugal, or Sweden to join either side voluntarily.

[ August 19, 2002, 03:17 AM: Message edited by: Randell Daigre ]

[googabooga]

Originally posted by Wolfe:

* Declaring war on Spain will all but guarantee Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, and Finland will not join the Axis voluntarily. And vice-versa.

- Chris

ive invaded spain two times as an axis because of gibraltar. and on both occasions after i declared war on the USSR, finland joins the axis (all politics random). i know you said "all but guarantee" so maybe ive just been lucky. but if i had to make an assesment base on my experience i'd say invading spain doesn't affect (effect?) finland.

good points from everyone. keep them coming...

-antti

[Wolfe]

Originally posted by harala:

ive invaded spain two times ... and on both occasions after i declared war on the USSR, finland joins the axis

Yeah, I think I was wrong about this one. Thanks for the correction!

- Chris

[Wolfe]

And another one:

Beyond some war readiness value the US and USSR seem to start a countdown to declaring war. I'm not sure what the threshold number is, but you only have a few turns once it begins to advance.

- Chris

[googabooga]

today i played as the axis against AI and it threw me a curveball: i took poland, denmark, sweden and i was pounding my way through Oslo's lone hapless defender when france decided make a pre-emptive strike against me by attacking the low countries. now i was playing the game with a carefree attitude and at the point of france's invasion i had somewhere around 1800 mpps. i started buying tank groups and armies like there was no tomorrow and easily stopped the advance in two turns.

not to embarass myself in my next pbem game, i would like to know how these strategies work against human opponent (allied or axis).

my own thoughts and speculations:

when taking sweden and norway i had with me (AI opponent):

-runstedt hq

-1 tank group

-2 armies

-3 air fleets

then again: to invade france against a _human_ i know i need around 5 airfleets, two HQs and X amount armies/tanks. this against a player who didnt have ~8 turns to build up frances army (time it takes to get denmark, sweden and norway). if at the start of the pbem i decide to play the "denmark, sweden, norway"-opening i have to finish off norway before i can start the france campaign because of the airfleets and runstedt hq. but by the time iam done annexing the "northern territories" i can only imagine what could happen in mainland europe.

and:

if france DoWs the low countries USAs entry level drops around 10-20% and italys entry goes up so iam not sure if it's a wise thing to do as an allied player. BUT in my limited experience against AI, axis still needs to pry france out of the Benelux countries or maybe take one maginot hex (not sure if maginot affects italys entry) to push italy over the edge to join the war... how about getting france at the start to tackle the buildup problem and only after that get the minors you want? (minor COUNTRIES you old pervs )

any thoughts? right/wrong/bad/good/evil?

(my brain refuses to work on weekdays so please forgive me if you find my explanations too confusing)

-antti

[Old Patch]

My experience with Italy is that you need to get at least one unit adjacent to Paris and take at least one French mainland resource (usually the mine hex behind the Maginot line). Italy then hops right in. Italy will come in sooner if the troops in Algeria and Syria are removed but since the AI doesn't do this I'm sure how much.

[Guest Mike]

you certainly don't need to have a unit next to Paris (didn't have one last night when Italy joined)!!

And I'm pretty sure you don't need to take a resource point either, since I sometimes don't bother (but I did last night and I can't remember what order it all happened in).

[googabooga]

my guess is that the war entry % is not always modified by the same amount even if you make exactly the same choises in two consecutive games. so i dont think we should be saying "you NEED to take X location or Y amount of cities to make Z country join the war" (unless you really really have to take it ie capital)

iam more intrested on what are the locations/cities that even affect anything... and what is the *general* amount of "stuff" you need to do to make i.e. italy joint the war...

example1: does italys entry have anything to do with maginot?

example2: does every resource hex/maginot hex in france affect their surrender?

-antti

edit: typos, stupidity

[ August 20, 2002, 12:05 PM: Message edited by: harala ]

[googabooga]

ran some tests: there is no effect on finnish supply/city strength if you take denmark, sweden and norway. (army in karelia still had suply of 1 and the corps in helsinki still had a suply of 5 etc.)

that is the only universal and absolute fact

disclaimer: could be proved wrong

i think gunslinger had an axis hq in finland to help in the suply of finnish troops...

-antti

[willgamer]

Another possibility for Finnish supply:

It goes up by 1/turn as soon as an overland route is completed back to Berlin. A path can usually be created east past Lenningrad and north around the lakes long before L. falls.

[Holyman]

Having too few troops at the german-ussr border seems to get the almighty Stalin to have a go for the anti-barbarossa.

Thank god for the operate option.

[googabooga]

Originally posted by Holyman:

Having too few troops at the german-ussr border seems to get the almighty Stalin to have a go for the anti-barbarossa.

Thank god for the operate option.

you could be right on this one. iam playing a pbem game and my objective was to try out those level 4 subs. so i didnt concentrate on the russian border at all. in the beginning i took poland, denmark, benelux, france, sweden, norway and yugoslavia. those were my only DoWs. then after couple of turns hungary, romania and bulgaria joined me (1 country per turn). at this point russia had a war entry % at 69. i stationed two german HQs and 6 armies + 4 tanks on the russian border and at the same time concentrated on building my level 4 advanced subs off the french coast. (i dont know if that force is "small" but its smaller than what i usually put on the eastern front)

the whole war turned quite passive at this point. i was just building my uboats and i didnt attack anybody. ofcourse some airfleets clashed over the english channel but that was it. during this inactivity i observed that russias entry level got up by a 3-5%/turn. is that normal? or is this the thing you were talking about?

-antti

[googabooga]

btw: what kind of rules people usually use in a pbem game? i _think_ you get a good pbem balance with

-all politics random

-war in siberia off

-soviet partisans on

-yugoslavian partisans off

-scorched earth off (this is the one i want to hear your opinions about)

-disable undo on

-free french units on

-fog of war on

if there are two equally good human players i think there should be some kind of ruleset which is fair enough for both of them. what rules do people use in ladder games? (do we even have a ladder?)

-antti

[Bis71]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the Baltic states. After Poland, you can take them with i air and 2 land units in two turns, while you take Denmark. This is with historic Russian settings. I'll see what happens with Russia on random.

[arby]

Originally posted by Bis71:

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the Baltic states. After Poland, you can take them with i air and 2 land units in two turns, while you take Denmark. This is with historic Russian settings. I'll see what happens with Russia on random.

I think this was changed from the original demo. When I did it then, it increased the Russkies' war readiness. But when I tried it in the Gold Demo (and presumably the game), the Russians declared war.

There is another automatic. In several of my PBEM games, the Allied player has moved both Canadian units to France. This, of course, leaves Canada undefended. I figured I might see what happens if the German player attacks Canada, so I hot-seated a test. The German player might be able to take it; the only way for the Allied player to prevent it is to operate an air unit into the capital. The problem is that as soon as the German takes Canada, the US enters the war. Which makes sense...

[pzgndr]

Declaring war on Spain will all but guarantee Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, and Finland will not join the Axis voluntarily.

I had this happen this weekend after taking Spain and Gibralter. Finland joined after declaring war on USSR, so it's not affected. But the other axis minors NEVER joined, even after USSR surrendered in 44. There should be a reduced join percentage, but not zero if that's the case now. If we *know* the minors won't join at all, may as well attack them for their MPPs rather than wait and wonder year after year. :mad:

And a general comment about attacking Norway and others. It's interesting that a cold calculation by both AI and players results in Norway often avoided, Allies hitting France in 42 rather than pushing on Italy, and other alternate strategies. I won't suggest changing the game to *compel* players to pursue historical strategies, but perhaps some additional random political events or other optional game variants could be added to provide motivation for certain strategies. In 3R, axis variants for activation of Spain or Turkey based on certain conditions provided motivation for achieving those conditions.

A lot of interesting political stuff is already in the game, but mostly hidden from view and not fully disclosed in the game manual. This thread highlights how everyone is finding bits and pieces of the puzzle, but no clear view of the big picture is available. On one hand, it's interesting to discover things in a game each time you play, but full disclosure of all game parameters would be helpful for a deeper understanding of the risks and benefits associated with various courses of action. So consider this a polite request for Hubert to update the user manual with more detail and maybe consider additional random political events.