More Choices for the Allies

[Edwin P.]

WWII was a period when the allies had to make a lot of choices regarding the allocation of resources and troops in the period prior to the US entry into the war.

A simulation of these choices would make for a more varied and interesting game for the allied player while they await the entry of Russia and the US into the war.

Example:

1> Australian Troops (Option appears in one random turn during 1940)

Should a corps from Australia be sent to Cairo or the South Atlantic or retained in Australia for the defense of Australia.

Game Effect: Provides an extra corps that could be used to defend Egypt or defend the British home Islands. The choice is up to the Allied player.

2> Military Aid to Norway(option is available until Norway Surrenders or Russia enters the war)

Should the UK send military aid to Norway - allowing it to mobilize a 5 strength corps on the coast next to Oslo (Cost 75MPP) or should it try to convince the Norwegians to operate its Bergan corps to Oslo (10% Accepted if Denmark is independent, 50% acceptance if Denmark has surrendered to Axis) by sending it 40MPP or should the UK do nothing with respect to Norway?

Game Effect: The Allied play must decide whether it is worth it to expend MPPs to increase the size of the Norwegian army or take a chance on convincing the Norwegians to operate forces from Bergan to Oslo. This could sharply reduce the chance for the typical 1 turn Axis conquest of Norway.

3> Vichy Syria (Option is available after French surrender until surrender of Vichy France or Russia enters the war.)

Should the UK convince Vichy France to withdraw its corps in Vichy Syria to guard Algiers. If Vichy France does this then there is a 33% that Turkey annexes Vichy Syria.

Game Effect: The UK has the option to reinforce Vichy Algiers with a corps (and leave Beruit open to invasion by the Axis or annexation by Turkey) or by doing nothing retain the Vichy Corps in Syria so it can become Free French by moving to UK territory if the Axis attacks Vichy France.

4>Support Algerian Guerillas (option appears each turn that the Axis controls Vichy France)

The UK ships assistance to Arab Freedom fighters in Algiers. Each shipment of 20MPP of Supplies has a 25% to create 1 Arab Partisan unit in the mountains of Algiers.

Game Effect: Forces Axis to garrison Algiers.

5> UK gives Gibraltor to Americans (option appears if Axis DOW Spain and Norway or Sweden has fallen to the Axis)

The UK may decide to transfer Gibraltor to the Americans.

Game Effect: Gibraltor becomes US territory garrisonned with 1 US Corps and will block Italian navy from Entering the Atlantic. If Axis wants to attack Gibraltor then it must DOW USA.

6> US and Spain Sign Defense Treaty (appears after France, Denmark, Norway and Vichy France or Sweden or Switzerland have surrendered to Axis. Option disappears after US or Russia enter the war.)

The US and Spain sign a defense treaty with all US lend lease supplies being diverted to Spain until the US enters the War or Axis launch Sea Lion invasion of the British Isles.

Game Effect: UK loses 40MPP from Merchant Marine until the US enters the War. Defense treaty with Spain means that any DOW by Axis on Spain triggers an automatic DOW against the US. Reduces incentive for Axis DOW on Spain.

7> US Lead Lease Evaluated after UK falls to German Sea Lion.(Option appears if UK surrenders to Axis Sea Lion)

After the UK surrenders then the US can choose to 1) Retain the Lead Lease MPPs to increase US production or 2) Send the Lend Lease MPPs to Russia or 3) do nothing so that the UK receives the MPP if it is liberated.

8> Ireland agrees to let UK station Air Unit in the Irish Republic. (appears if Ireland is neutral, Denmark and Paris have surrendered and Germany has not invaded the UK)

In exchange for 25MPP the neutral Irish republic allows the UK to station one air fleet in Ireland.

Game Effect: UK can station an air unit in neutral Ireland.

9> UK allows Turkey to Annex Iraq and Syria. (appears only if Spain or Vichy France have surrendered to Axis. Option is no longer available once Russia or the US enters the war)

The UK may decide to recognize Turkish soverignty over its former territories of Iraq and Syria. The allies gain the right to operate units over Turkey between Russia and Egypt.

Game Effect: Turkish borders expand to include neutral Iraq and possibly Syria (Syria only if Axis troops do not occupy Beruit). This effectively prevent the Axis from attacking Iraq and protects Russia's southern border. However, the allies are also prevented from taking Iraq and its oil fields.

10> UK recalls fleet from the Pacific(Option appears while US is Neutral)

The UK recalls its fleet from the Pacific. One battleship and two cruisers may be sent to the South Atlantic or to Egypt (if the UK controls the Suez Canal. UK Player choice. Use of this option reduces the units available for a Russian Siberian transfer as it increases the strength of the Japanese in the Pacific.

Game Effect: UK gains 3 naval units at the cost of a reduced Siberian transfer.

11> US Abandons the Pacific (option appears if US is at war and Germany Conquers the UK prior to Jan 1941).

The US may decide to abandon the Pacific to the Japanese and focus on liberating Europe.

The US receives 2 Carriers, 2 cruisers, 1 sub, 1HQ (McArthur), 1Bomber, and 3 Army Transports five months after the UK falls. Russia can not receive a Siberian Transfer until Jan 1945, as the victorious Japanese threaten to overrun Siberia.

12> Bargin with the Devil you Know (a game balancing choice for players)

Note: In this option Turkey becomes a Major power and Turkish MPPs may only be used to produce Turkish Units!

Allies - If Axis take Moscow or Rostov - The Allies recognize Turkish Soverignty over Syria, Iraq, Egypt. Turkey joins the Allies. Turkish units may only enter Syria, Iraq, Russia, Egypt, Libya, Bulgaria, Greece, Albania, Romania. Turkey can produce new units. If the Allies liberate/conquer any of these territories they become Turkish controlled. If Russia takes Warsaw then Turkey becomes neutral again and Turkish borders expand to include all Russian city/resource hexes in the Caucaus mountain area south south east of Rostov and Stalingrad. Turkish units return to Turkish Territory and/or nations controlled by Turkey when Turkey becomes Neutral.

Game Effect: The Axis face a new front and the Russians get reinforcements. The Allies lose any production they had from the Middle East and Russia loses control of the Causcaus mountain region if they bounce back and manage to take Warsaw.

Axis - If Russia attacks Warsaw - The Axis recognize Turkish soverignty over Bulgaria, Iraq, Syria, Egypt and Libya. Turkish borders expand to include these territories and Axis units therein are relocated to the closest Axis cities. Turkey joins the Axis. Turkish units may only enter Turkey, Russia, Romania, Syria, Iraq, Egypt, Libya, Algeria, Bulgaria, Greece, Albania. Turkey can produce new units. If Germany conquers Russia all Russian cities south of Stalingrad become Turkish and Turkey returns to becoming a Neutral nation and Germany does not receive plunder from conquering Russia.

Game Effect: The Allies are threatened on a new front while the Axis lose any production they had in the Middle East and any chance of getting Russian plunder.

[ January 06, 2004, 10:45 AM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[Shaka of Carthage]

Yes, it would be nice if more "what-ifs" or "diplomatic options" appeared for both sides. It would enhance the replayability, though you would get complaints from people who don't like any random features.

[Les the Sarge 9-1]

What possibly needs to be done, is to maybe add a more diplomatic layer into SC2.

As it currently stands with SC, you either attack or you don't.

There doesn't seem to be any other functional choice.

In A3R for instance, through the diplomacy rules, you can expend effort to achieve a desired response. The chances of success are of course tempered by the then real world attitudes associated with the targets.

Spain for instance, was Pro German, so any option involving the Allies will be met with a major uphill climb simply because that was the way it was.

Yugoslavia was Pro Allied cause, and as a result is a good example of a target the Allies can work with easier.

Turkey can swing either way.

I would want any option though, to take into account the real world chances of success. A lot of things "might" have happened, but didn't. a lot of things would likely never have happened, and as such, they won't really interest me personally.

I for instance, do not wish to see any option that has anything to do with Switzerland.

[Edwin P.]

To reflect the effects of politics you could have an option where each of the options listed above have only a 50% or 75% of appearing in each game.

Thus players would be precluded from always selecting the same diplomatic options each game as the list of available choices would constantly change.

[ January 04, 2004, 07:57 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[Shaka of Carthage]

Edwin P

To reflect the effects of politics you could have an option where each of the options listed above have only a 50% or 75% of appearing in each game.

Instead of randomly having potential options appear, why not have the percentage chance (of the option appearing), be modified by the diplomatic options that are taken? Creating a Diplomatic sub-system that effects a neutral nations readiness percentage shouldn't be that difficult. Having that effect also modify the types of choices you outlined, would exponetially increase the various combinations that could occur, increasing the replayability factor.

[pzgndr]

In A3R for instance, through the diplomacy rules, you can expend effort to achieve a desired response.

I know lots of folks love expending effort to achieve diplomacy and research results, and the more detailed the better (like HOI :eek: ). But there's something to be said for the simple variants in the original 3R. It made each game different, and getting that odd variant often compelled you to try something new.

Too often the "desired" response ends up being the "optimum" response, with the result being stale gameplay as everyone tries to do the same thing every time. Look how the current air strategy in SC has affected things. What's wrong with some pure randomness for replayability?

A number of realistic variants for each side could easily be introduced in SC2, with all of them balanced somehow to be worth about 250-500 MPP each. Then games could be set up with a certain number of variants (bids?) for each side, random by default but perhaps user selectable also. Assuming SC2 is playbalanced, the number of variants should be the same for each side but some handicapping should also be possible. Example: Allies get 3 variants and Axis only gets 2. :cool:

I'm not saying get rid of diplomacy and research, just don't make them unnecessarily complex. A dozen or so well-balanced variants for each side would be sufficiently interesting, relatively easy to implement, and probably easy for both human and AI players to use.

[KDG]

Nice topic once again Edwin.

I'd just add that if you allow an options screen that allows you to turn on and off(or frequency) random events, everyone should be happy.

I'd also allow the % rates of occurrance to be editable thus individuals can make tweaks where required.

[Les the Sarge 9-1]

I will support pzgndr's add on to my first A3R comment.

The diplomacy rules are great, but as with most things, some are more equal than others.

The option chits of the earlier TR/A3R set up were random in that you had a finite number of chits, and you picked one blindly.

It was then up to the player to bluff cajole and generally try to make the opponent paranoid about what option you might possess.

Although sadly, as often as I have tried, the AI just never listens to me

[Edwin P.]

It will be most interesting to see if any of the suggestions above are included in SC2.

In the meantime, any comments on the 12>Bargain with the Devil Option/Variant - I thought that it might be an interesting way to give the underdog a chance to stage a comeback - but at the cost of losing a lot of production capacity if they are successful. Note how the movement of Turkish units is limited to specific geographic areas and that Turkey returns to being a Neutral nation if certain conditions occur.

[ January 06, 2004, 10:39 AM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]