reply to JJ

[DeGaule]

Id say its slow but on the topic of advance speed anyone else notice the Russian's incredibly FAST adavance ?? Ive attacked Russia in May 41 and Im facing a country with Industrail Tech 2( the russians!!!) and Jet level 1 already. it would be more or less logical if they had spend there MPP pool to achieve that but NO! it huge. Something just doesnt feel right when a country can apply Scorched Earth on its own territory while replacing whole armies in the field and still lead the world in tecnology development speed. By the time I get to Moscow they also add Heavy Tanks 1 Make no Mistake, Im still kicking THEM out of Moscow and Leningrad and sitting in Grozny but Im getting tired of seeing the RED ARMY wich should be a bunch of demoralized straggler on the run by this time, be a modern and determined heavy force in the OURAL and along the Turkish Border. What are they suddenly..All Kurds or something ??

And does Turkey ever get involved ? I driven the Russina to there border 3 times all in 1942 to early 43 and they never even mobilized...seems to me they would really have jumped at the chance to get rid of the Red Menace?

Ok enough ranting....back to Christmas morning now

Have a great holiday everyone

[Logan Hartke]

Turkey gets involved only when Britain is being taken (at least in my experience) and sometimes not even then.

Logan Hartke

[JerseyJohn]

DeGaule

I don't think you're ranting. You made several good points.

As I understand it countries without much technological advancement make the quickest initial progress. If Germany is at the one level in several areas and two in a couple of specialties, then it's adversaries are going to gain fast advances in those areas because they'll learn from studying captured equipment and tactically they'll pick up new techniques that they are being victimized by.

You'd have a better chance of Turkish entry if you drive the Russians out of the Caucasus instead of toward the Turkish border. The problem with both Turkey and Spain is they enter when you no longer need them. Spain tends to enter after England is successfully invaded, at which point you can transport an Italian infantry corps to occupy vacated Gibraltar.

I suppose the advantages of a Spanish entry is the assurance that Spain won't go over to the Allies and in an emergency you can easy operate units into Iberia to counter an allied attempt to retake the place. A possibility against a human opponent, but probably not against the A. I.. Spain and Turkey also have good MPP value but if you get it after successfully invading England and driving the Soviets out of the Caucasus you'll be in the pleasant position of noticing the increase to your already huge MPP income and saying, oh how nice. with a yawn.

I'm sure others will have a different take on this, but what I've written is pretty much what I've found happens in my own games. I make no claim at being among the best of players so it's quite possible I'm wrong on specific issues or don't quite use the slickest methods, in which case I'm very eager to hear ideas and methods contrary to my own.

Perhaps there are ways of making Spain and/or Turkey enter much earlier, when they're troops and MPPs would be of greater importance. If so, let's share the info!

[ December 25, 2002, 06:52 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Kuniworth]

Well I think it+s very strange that the Soviet union dont start with heavy tanks in the first place.

[Logan Hartke]

Originally posted by Kuniworth:

Well I think it+s very strange that the Soviet union dont start with heavy tanks in the first place.

Actually, I think that they do.

Logan Hartke

[BriantheWise]

Jersey John,

I agree with you on the tech issues. That is how the tech game works. I agree with you on the entry of the entry of Spain or Turkey. Turkey will maybe enter, when you really really don't need them anymore, depending on everything else.

Spain with enter, though, as you're Sea Lioning, when you might maybe need them. If Englad falls, you won't need them. But if Sea Lion quagmires, with the Axis holding London and a few hexes, but kind of stuck while readiness is rising in Russia, US has joined or is close too, Spain can come in very handy, if you're going to try to pull a rabbit out your hat (and it's hard, because the hat is very small, and the rabbit is very big (Russia): If Spain joins, use their units to take Portugal. This will allow the plunder to buy either a key air or HQ for Sea Lion, or a few corps to stave off the Russians when they do join.

Since none of them actually did enter in WW2, but could have, I think the game accurately reflects this.

[JerseyJohn]

BriantheWise

Agreed on everything. My entry was a bit muddled on a few things and you straightened them out and clarified the others.

Good point about the Axis entries. They're like found money. And of course if America's entry and the U. K's collapse happen close to each other it helps to have Spain right there to move a unit into Gibraltar before America can simply occupy it.

Logan Hartke

As is so often the case, I believe you are also correct here that Russia does start out with a higher heavy tank level than anyone else and agreed that they should. (edited after Logan's quoting it; his is the original paragraph).

Except, of course, that they didn't use them well in large formations till they saw how the Germans did it against them. The first six months they employed them in (the German term) Penny Packets as France had done earlier, making them comparatively easy meat for German anti-tank batteries. The exception being the early T-34's and some of the other Russian heavy armour, which the Germans found very difficult to knock out and were grateful the tanks weren't used with tactical skill by their owners.

[ December 25, 2002, 08:20 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Logan Hartke]

Originally posted by JerseyJohn:

Logan Hartke

Yes sir, as you are so often, I believe you are also correct here that Russia does start out with a higher heavy tank level than anyone else and agreed that they should.

Except, of course, that they didn't use them well in large formations till they saw how the Germans did it against them. The first six months they employed them in (the German term) Penny Packets as France had done earlier, making them comparatively easy meat for German anti-tank batteries. The exception being the early T-34's and some of the other Russian heavy armour, which the Germans found very difficult to knock out and were grateful the tanks weren't used with tactical skill by their owners.

Not only that, but they had very small numbers of trained crewmembers and couldn't maintain more than ~30% of their tanks at one time, and that's not taking into account the massive supply problems.

Logan Hartke

[satchel]

JerseyJohn—do you know the equivalent German-language expression for the term ‘penny packets?’ I could use this. Thanks.

[JerseyJohn]

satchel

"JerseyJohn—do you know the equivalent German-language expression for the term ‘penny packets?’ I could use this. Thanks."

Wish I did, "penny packet" is obviously a British adaptation. I'm not even sure where I saw it used. Possibly it was in the BBC documentary The World asWar . Filmed thirty years ago, it has dozens of interviews with high ranking officials and military men as well as battle veterans and civilian survivors. I believe one of the German generals, speaking English, said it. I've also seen it in print numerous times along with the doctrinal phrase mass, not driblets! which is derived from a much earlier Napoleonic French phrase. To use a cliche, it's amazing how everything changes but always remains the same.

The one to ask is about this one, however, is JayJay_H.. He'll probably post the answer later and knowing him there will also be background notes and other expressions along with illustrations! He's a frequent and extremely knowledgable member in Germany.

[ December 26, 2002, 05:12 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]