The Second Roman Empire!!!

[Zeres]

Ok. Before I start let me say that I haven't tested this strategy against a human opponent yet( I'm sure that wouldn't work). But it is KILLER against the AI. I'm just punishing the Allies (three times in a row on Expert +1 experience) with a new Italian strategy and I'm just curious if any of you do a similiar thing. It would only work against a human if they don't do that " jump your southern fleet thing" in the beginning.

Step one: As soon as you enter the war. Pull your Southern fleet up near Albania. And then screen your battle ships with you cruiser and your sub. The A.I fleet does'nt come after you for some reason if you do this. Then transport the Albanian Garrison to Naples and operate both Italian armies to Naples and transport them both to Albania ( Do not attack Yugoslavia with the Germans, go Denmark, Norway then Sweden to get their plunder)

Step two: Save up and buy a level 4 Italian HQ ( I prefer Garabaldi, I just like his name) and One italian Air unit. Again, pack them off to Albania.

By the time they get there I find Yugoslavia usually has already declared an Allied Coup.....how convient!!! you know the deal, just three corps there. You take the Capital and use the plunder to buy an Anti-tank research point.

Step three: Do not buy anymore units. Take Bulgaria with your now seasoned little Italian army. Use the plunder to help buy another research point for the Italians(anti-tank)

Step Four: A) Invade Greece. By now you actually have a good Italian general ( Imagine that?) Add one Italian corp for this invasion. This usually goads the Allies into some kind of feeble action. The Gibraltor battleship doesn't come over for some reason and the French units are long gone at this point. You will easily eliminate the Brittish Eastern Med Squadron. ( you'll take some damage so just remember to screen the advancing Brits with your sub and your cruiser. Basically they are toast.

Since you haven't been building any units you should have enough for another italian HQ and an Air unit;either right before or during the greek invasion. When you have crushed the brittish med fleet,move the new air unit and hq to Libya.

Step four: now this is the wierd thing that keeps happening. Greece has a lot of mountains so it usually takes me three to five turns to conquer. So I roll money into fighter research. By the time I conquer Greece I always seem to have at least level one infantry and sometimes level one jets. This always happens and I think it's wierd. So when Greece falls I move the research from infantry ( level one is plenty for the italians)into jet fighters.So now you have four research in jet fighters. Use the plunder and every other cent you get and go into industrial tech.

While all this is going on, your new general is having a Party is Libya, the Brittish fleet is gone and your marching toward the Suez and your fleet is pounding the hapless Brit corps. you'll make short work of them.

Step five: You guessed it. Invade Turkey and Iraq at the same time. Russia always draws the line here, they will start mobilizing when your mobilizing on the border so make sure the Germans are ready. you will need one more infantry army to take out turkey efficiently but no reason to rush it in, take your time going through turkey. because as you start making progress the Russians will start sending down a corp here or there to try to stop turkey from falling and you will turn them into absolute dog meat. Every Russian corp you kill in Turkey is a corp you dont have to deal with in russia. It's actually pretty gleeful for me to watch because I always had a hard time with the Russians until I fell upon this strategy.

Iraq will fall quicker but Don't attack Vichy France ( Well not yet).

Step five: By the time you reach the Turkish capital you will start noticing something strange. You will be getting a staggering amount of tech developements. I can't figure it out. Why does Italy get so many advances with relatively less investment?By the end of 43 I usually have tech 5 industry and tech five jets. The Brittish and Americans will start launching their desperate pre-mature D-days. So I usually create a third Italian general and send my most experienced jets to france and just wreck everything that comes anywhere near France.

What happens when Turkey falls is you combine those two experienced armies and march right into the industrial heart land of Russia and they make feeble attempts to stop you ( but they have their hands full as you know).

I think it's a legitimate strategy but it's made too easy by the insane tech advantages the Italians seem to get. I tried it three times and I always end up out developing all the other major powers in Jets and industrial Tech. really wierd. Anyway I love this game, I can't tell you how many hours I've been playing it ( it's embarrassing)Thanks for reading and if you try this strategy let me know if you get similar results.

Peace out

[RicKhan]

Zeres,

Italy or as u put it "The Second Roman Empire", is the most fun to play as the Axis. In SC all major powers are created equal, that is until tech advances. And i Agree that Italian Scientists are the most efficent of any major power. Advances for Italy can be staggering. In a game i am playing now TCP/IP i kept a record of advances.

Germany

Tanks Lv1 Aug40

Jets Lv1 Sept40

Rockets Lv1 Jun41

Idustrial Lv1 Jul 41

Tanks Lv2 Jan 42

Jets Lv2 Jun 42

Antitank Nov 42

Tanks Lv3 Dec 42

Tanks Lv4 March 43

Italy

Idustrial Lv1 Jul 40

Industrial Lv2 Sept 40

Antitank Lv1 Jun 41

Antitank Lv2 Aug 41

Jets Lv1 Sept 41

Jets Lv2 Dec 41

LongRange Jan 42

Tanks Lv1 May 42

Antitank Lv3 Jul 42

Antiair Lv1 Aug 42

Idustrial Lv3 Aug 42

Industrial Lv4 Oct 42

Rockets Lv1 Nov 42

GunLaying Lv1 Jan 43

:eek:

And Germany has always had more Scientists than Italy. As Italy i only put 1 per catagory as they seem better equipped to advance than the Germans.

And this is not an isolated Game for me. Face to Face and E-mail I have found Italy to be a powerhouse if given a chance for Glory in the Med.

Best ever done, was encircling the Med in Italian Brown.

In my games Germany is lackey to the Italian Iron Boot.

[Zeres]

Thanks for the response. I was wondering what the hell was going on. Most players don't use the italians to take any countries but actually there is not much the allies can do to stop them (unlike Germany). A little time invested in Italy goes a long way.

[JerseyJohn]

Zeres -- Good idea, if the Italians are strong they are more of an asset. But there are much simpler ways to get there against the AI.

Here's my own tried and proven recipe for Mussolini's "Our Little Lake" (the Mediteranean) fantasy.

It's all very gamey, so purists need read no further. Also, whether much of this would work against a skilled human player is doubtful.

The British fleet at Alexandria rarely moves; the only time I've seen the AI do so is if the Italian fleet wanders up to it early in the game.

Consequently there's no need to hide your ships, bring the sub a few hexes east of Malta and deprive the already deprived UK of 5 MPPs a turn. Leave your capital ships near Taranto for a while, you'll need them later.

Next, Marsielle will almost always be undefended, grab it with one of your armies to get a few more MPPs, you'll lose them when France falls, so grab them while they're available. Leave the Albanian garrison where it is and don't bother putting troops in Naples or Taranto as the AI doesn't go after them.

Take a trip to Berlin, tell Hitler you're fascinated by his artwork, his city scenes with gaunt buildings and stick people who don't respond to each other are fascinating. He'll love you and do anything to help out, which is good. Ask him to send a couple of airfleets to Sicily -- no hurry, he can wait till after France falls.

Put your spare lire in a piggy bank and don't break it till you can buy an airfleet of your own. Buy it and place it beside their German comrades on the lush Sicilian hillsides; request the yellow haired Luftwaffe boys refrain from laughing at your circa 1937 designs, tell your own pilots they're lucky, assure those pilots they're lucky to be flying such tried and true machines, why, they don't make fighters like that any more -- and you won't be lying!

Keep hitting Malta with your German and Italian air fleets and send your cruiser and three battleships to hit it as well. Get mad, what the hell are those filthy limies doing so close to Sicily -- get enraged, growl, set an Italian corps (but not the one in Albania) on transport and put it off Malta right away. Before long the British Air fleet will fall to zero, land your troops, raise the flag, and start coveting your neighbor's everything.

Move your sub a little east of Gibraltar to have the Brits continue losing 5 MPPs each turn. Don't worry about the British BB, the AI always sends it north before any of this occurs.

Make another trip to Berlin, admire some more of Adoph's alleged art work, praise him, and talk about how well German and Italian airmen work together. You'll be telling the truth, because without the Luftwaffe your guys in the Aeronautica are a skeet shoot! Suggest those Luftwaffe units would be great for another project. He'll start talking about how his planes are needed over Britain or perhaps someplace "EAST" -- he won't say where, exactly, because it's a secret! Listen politely, then point to one of his masterpieces and ask him if it's a Michelangelo or a Leonardo and he'll say "Okay, how long will you need my luftflottes!"

Plug the holes in your ships, they ought to be pretty leaky by now, declare war on Vichy France and let it rip. Send your two armies to reoccupy Marsiells and have them damage the Vichy BB in port by hurling rocks and insults at it from the shore.

Your own ships should gang up on the other Vichy BB at Mers el Kabir, then send them north to finish off her abused and anchored sister.

Get angry again. Those stinking Frogs, what the hell are they doing right next to Italy for crissakes -- get'em the hell out of there and rename their former holdings Cisalpine Gaul and Carthage.

Transport another Italian corps, or perhaps the one from Malta to be posted off Algeria. When the Vichy garrison becomes very weak from air and naval bombardment, land the corps for the final assualt. Be careful not to do it too early as it will have no supplies after the first turn.

Vichy France surrenders and by now Italy is fairly powerful.

Make another trip to Berlin, admire the Fuhrer's paintings again and tell him he's mastered several new technics since your last visit. Be careful not to mention artists who haven't been dead less than two hundred years. Then, after dinner and listening to Die Meistersinger, tell him you have a problem; the damn Yugoslavs are getting on your already strained nerves and the Greeks, momma mia, who the hell can stand to live on the same sea as the obnoxiuous Greeks!

He sighs and you elaborate.

Those barbarians on the other side of Adriatic make noise all hours of the night, you can't get any sleep and are so groggy you can't pose properly, with the proper sneer and chin movements, at Fascist Rallies.

You're so agitated that you've already sent your two armies to the Yugoslav border and have raised a corps to garrison Trieste/Venice (a safeguard against later Yugoslav partisans).

He's hesitating, there's this Eastern thing and . . . Tell him they've been sneaking prints of Picasso and Duchamp into the Reich -- !

That does it, you have whatever you'll need.

He lets you in on a secret, his cracked, I mean crack diplomats have got Hungary, Rumania and Bulgaria lined up to assist in a big project to the "EAST" somewhere that he can't tell you about because it's still a secret.

Count Ciano hands you a folded note, Fascist Iteligence has identified Germany's "EAST" project, it can only be the invasion of Japan.

Wrapping up the conference Der Fuhrer pats your hand, asks you to send some more connolis rushed UPS same day and measures your skull with prongs, pronouncing it a neo-Nordic type 9 --

Then he says "Sit tight, don't do anything yet because the Yugoslavs are foaming at the mouth, they're mad dogs who crave sick things like freedom and independance and they're about to have a convulsion."

He winks and can't reveal any more because this too is a secret.

Before you even arrive home there's a pro-allied coup in Belgrade. You sing Verdi arias, a couple from Aida in a rhapsody of whishful thinking, and watch German airfleets and Axis troops reduce the Yugoslavian army to a few shell shocked diehards.

You send very explicit messages to the Hungarians, Bulgarians and Germans that it's okay for them to reduce the Yugoslavian army, but they must, under no circumsances, enter the city itself. Anticipating their displeasure you send hot lasagna and pastry so they won't be sore at you.

The two Italian armies make their way south to the now undefended or very weak city of Belgrade and you enter in a grand victory parade. The festivities culminate with the place being renamed "Benitoville" after some lucky guy.

Peace at last, except the Greeks are being anooying now, refusing to be reasonable and get annexed and they are really getting on your nerves with all their sovereignty talk.

You start packing for a trip but just then the Germans get prissy, Ribbentrop visits, you show him your big, BIG map and he says they can no longer take part in your screwy schemes. They have their own screwy schemes to worry about.

So he goes back to Berlin and you don't get any more aid, so who needs them anyway, damn huns were never anything but a nuisance anyhow!

Italy now has plenty of MPPs.

You've started doing research -- hey, your aircraft designers think it might be possible to build fighters that have a single wing -- momma mia, armor designers start thinking up ways to attach steel shielding to the sides of your tanks, maybe even fit them with real artillery pieces -- it's all so revolutionary!

You have so many MPPs you can do things like build an aircraft carrier, a second submarine to further punish British convoys and maybe even help sink their Mediteranean squadron.

Whole vistas of new possibilities begin to open up, who knows what you can achieve without German meddling!

But first you have to extend Italian citizenship to those poor souls in Greece.

You build an Army HQ in Albania, maybe Garibaldi because you like his name, or perhaps Balbo because in 1930 he was the first to cross the Atlantic with a squadron of sea planes and he's a hero, beloved by the people and he thoroughly hates your guts and -- on second thought, make it Garibaldi.

You anchor a BB near Athens, ask the Bulgarians to help cover your derrier, build a corps or two in Yugoslavia to watch for Partisans, and invite Greece to enter the Italian camp by declaring war on her.

The first thing you notice is not one, but two strong Armies firmly entrenched in the mountains. Your first instinct is to attack them because they really tick you off -- what the hell are those guys doing in YOUR Greek mountains? But you subdue your impulses and march south to besiege Athens, causing the Greek armies in the north to run out of supplies and resort to throwing rocks at stray goats.

A short bombardment, shelling and a few assaults enables you to enter the former Greek capital and rename it VillaBenito. Geez, you look around and regret doing so much damage till Count Ciano points to the really big stone and marble ruins and says they've been like that for thousands of years, and you feel better. Then you cross your arms and say it's a disgrace that things have been left so long in such disrepair --such a thing would never be tolerated in Fascist Italy!

During the flight home Count Ciano hands you another cryptic message, the Germans have changed their plans and, instead of invading Japan, are invading the Soviet Union.

"No," you say, "How can this be, what possible sense does that make?" but Ciano's boys are pretty sure of it because newpapers round the world are showing photos of Stukas dropping heavy objects on Minsk, Kiev and Odessa.

So, Der Fuhrer, that snake, all along he's been distracting you so he could snatch Russia for himself! Seems you can't trust anyone.

All of which means there's no time to lose. He's grabbing Russia this month, next month it might be Yeman!

You put things in high gear, send your fleet, including the two subs and the new aircraft carrier, to the eastern Mediteranean and have them sink the once feared British fleet.

Garibaldi and his two armies board canoes and paddle from Athens to Syria, which is already yours from Vichy France. They land, your airfleets operate across the water and, in a spending fit you even build another one. No time to lose, and it's only then that you realize how much you detest the Iraqis.

God how you hate them, sitting there in the Italian city of Bahgdad -- they're insufferable. Good thing you happen to have the now formidable Italian army and air force on hand.

But really, all this killing and suffering, is it all necessary? You sigh, why can't everyone just get along, why can't the Iraqis and Italians be friends? You send them a nice note, "Dear Iraqis, I'm inviting you to become Italians, what do you say?"

Their reply is written in some sort of squigly mumbo jumbo, who the hell can read that stuff, so you extend the olive branch and declare war on them.

Before you can utter "Mare Nostrum" there's a victory parade motoring through "New Benitoville" and you suddenly realize King Faruk

hasn't accepted your invitation, he doesn't even attend the unveiling of your new statue!

Such jealousy -- God how you hate him! Him and that British corps sitting in Alexandria and everything about them, why it's Antony and Cleopatra all over again and you hang a right out of New Benitoville to settle a few scores.

A short time later you're watching Aida being performed in Cairo, the way old Verdi prefered it. The Eygyptian MPPs are yours till the UK falls, at which time guess which vipor steals them from you! -- but everything else you've taken remains yours forever, or at least till the Italian people express their love for you by dangling you playfully, upside down, from some Genoese lamp post.

Sitting in your new Alexandrian office you look out across the waves and say, "All Mine!" Except that annoying Ciano has to mutter, "What about Turkey?" Rushing to your big, BIG map, you look up and scream, "Turkey -- Turkey, it's ruining my whole ambiance!" And it's only then that you fully understand how hateful people like Mustapha Kamil really are . . ..

Crossing the harbor in your special launch you cross your arms and exhibit your meanest expression while the naval band strikes up 'Hail Italia, Italia Rules the Waves --'.

That idiot Ciano, what does he know telling you this morning your ships were badly mauled while sinking the British and will take months to repair -- they look just fine, the ones that remain. Sure, perhaps a bit low in the water and slanted to one side with a few dents and holes and . . ..

And from one of them a pair of sailors, Louigie Costellano and Bud Abotto, standing on a scaffold working on the hull of BB Litorio salute and shout down to you "Having a nice ride, Il Duce?"

And you wave back; like all people all over the world they love you.

"Yes my children -- we sail today for Asia Minor!"

One of shorter sailor starts saying, "But the ships are --" and the taller one slaps him on the head.

So you cross your arms once more and gaze ahead. Now that you think of it, nobody's heard a word from Franco in ages -- what's he doing, is he with us or against us? Especially considering all the money and material and (a-hem) volunteers you sent to help get him started. What an ingrate -- come to think of it, you hate him too!

But first it's Asia Minor -- then -- yes, now that you think of it, the proper name for that other place is Hispania . . ..

--- --- ---

Italy becomes a super state beyond anything Il Duce could have imagined -- okay, let's not go that far, the man had a terrific imagination!

Italian research comes up with all sorts of adances. One guy drinks too much vino and says not only can aircraft be built with a single wing, they don't even need propellars, maybe not even a tail, and maybe the whole thing can just be designed like a big boomerang and --and you send him to a sanitorium!

You're the new Roman Emperor. In game terms it's debatable whether you gain anything doing it this way, or just letting Germany do most of that conquering. I think it makes for a more interesting situation with Italy going after the Mediteranean, especially if you like the thought of vindicating Il Duce and carrying out his goals.

Except, of course, as dgaad and others have pointed out in several other forums, Italy in 1940 had neither oil nor spare parts nor decent weapons nor quality officers nor a strong industrial base nor . . ..

As for incompetence -- though they were in Libya since 1911 their planes based there in 1941 still lacked sand filters! -- Incendiary bombs that went off as the bombay opened, igniting the bomber that carried them! -- Combat boots made of pressed cardboard!

Picky-Picky-Picky!

[ November 18, 2002, 06:20 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[RicKhan]

JerseyJohn,

Please be my Propaganda Minister for Italy. :cool:

IT was great reading.

So could you continue and tell us how Spain falls into this plan? And don't leave out how important Rockets are to the Italians.

:eek:

[aaa]

A true Homeric, um I mean Ciceric ballad of conquest!

[Norse]

Originally posted by Zeres:

Step three: Take Bulgaria with your now seasoned little Italian army. Use the plunder to help buy another research point for the Italians(anti-tank)

Axis minors are:

* Bulgaria

* Rumenia

* Hungary

* Finland

* Spain

* Turkey

If you play your cards right, then they will all be joining the Axis.

If you play your cards wrong, then they won't be joining you. Spain and Turkey are the most unforgiving ones. If you do something that might upset them, like attacking Bulgaria, then you scare them off from joining your side forever.

So you should weight this up against each other. Is it worth attacking your own ally for a MPP reward?

~Norse~

[JerseyJohn]

Many Thanks, glad you both enjoyed the epic, had a lot of fun writing it.

Haven't used Italian Rockets yet.

A few times Germany reached L-3 with them and I built a few units, used them successfully to take London firing from Flanders, Malta, firing from Sicily, and Gibraltar after Spain entered.

Also used them in Russia against Odessa and Sevastopal; the main problem with rockets is their lack of mobility, but if you find a good spot for them they can be very, very effective --especially against BBs.

It's best to cover a group of them with at least one airfleet. It's fun to fire them and not be concerned with the annoying kick-back loss. When they reach Level-5 they have a range of six and tend to rule the field.

A note on Norse's entry -- if you attack Yugoslavia before her coup, Hungary, Romania and Bulgaria remain neutral.

By the time Italy gets around to Turkey, Spain usually enters the Axis. Spain would make an interesting campaign but it hasn't happened with me yet.

After Egypt I operate the two armies out of Lybia (Tripoli and Tobruck) to Syria, where they join the Italian HQ and the other two armies and airfleet for the Turkish campaign.

About that time Turkey tends to join the Axis, if it doesn't things are more exciting with the invasion proceeding as planned.

After Turkey, Italy sometimes gets into the Russian campaign, normally in the Caucasus.

By that time her research is popping and, in this game system if not historically, she's a real dynamo!

When Turkey joins the Axis the Russian campaign becomes easy. As the game is slanted toward the Axis anyhow, if Italy is this far along I think it's a good handicap for her to invade Turkey and see if it makes things more competitive.

I doubt that anything short of total victory in Russia would have induced Spain, Turkey or Portugal to join the Axis in real life, though all three were sympathetic.

I think Spain was probably the key to Italy not being defeated -- Gibraltar had to be closed, otherwise Britain had too much control of the Mediteranean.

In the Autumn of 1940, Hitler met with Franco to discuss Spain's joining the Axis and allowing Germany to "help" her take Gibraltar.

Admiral Canaris, an old friend of the Generalisimo's, was sent to pave the way for the meeting. No one suspected, yet, that the Admiral was playing for both sides. When he noticed a lack of enthusiasm on Franco's part, he tipped him off to Hitler's Russian plans and advised him, confidentially, that Spain's economy would suffer greiviously by being at war with Britain!

Franco nodded. Returning to Berlin, Canaris told Hitler he had done his best and felt Franco was ready to cooperate.

The meeting took place and Franco said very little, just sat and listened impasively with a fixed stare directed at nothing while an aide brought up all the unpleasant points. Germans in the room saw the way he spoke to Hitler and half expected the man to be shot!

At the end of the session, Hitler, trembling with suppressed rage and anger, told Ribbentrop he'd rather have half his teeth pulled without anesthetic than meet again with the Spaniard!

Looking forward to reading your own adventures in this thing. Hope you use Italian rockets.

-- Would greatly enjoy being a (fantasy) Fascist Italy's PR man. Great climate, great food, get to live in a nice villa, Momma Mia!

[ October 28, 2002, 09:54 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Zeres]

I just like plundering those axis minors with Italy. Maybe it's gamey but it's fun. Whatever. great game.

[Desert Dave]

As originally posted by JerseyJohn:

... glad you both enjoyed the epic, had a lot of fun writing it.

Good stuff JJ.

One doesn't know whether to laugh, or... cry. It is an Opera Bouffe that appropriately depicts the Chaplinesque lunacy of those two stupidly strutting stooges, yet...

...and anyway, they are surely drifting currently in the fiery foul waters way down there in Dante's 9 Circles of Hell... 'round & around and up & down, ad nauseum, ad infinitum, true?

O whereat -- the Glory that was -- Rome!

Too bad they didn't have a stoic statesman along the lines of the brilliant and literate Marcus Aurelius, eh?

But, as to the strategic possibilities of Italy actually becoming a major player in the Med, I don't know -- an alert British opponent could carefully (... best if the Germans do not notice TOO MUCH Med activity... and unfortunately, I didn't -- when Bill Macon did this to me in a game just recently) insert another BB and a Carrier or two and maybe also a HQ and an Air Fleet and a Bomber and BEF and Canadian mounted Army, and next thing you know...

...that tattered, blood-bespattered Black Shirt is hanging storm-blown forlorn on a pitiful little stick -- stuck in the slowly shifting sands in the vicinity of old Cyrenaica, and there are so many large and ungainly carrion birds patiently circling -- you can't hardly tell... that -- once it was...

...so flamboyantly worn! by the descendents of laurel-adorned,

Homer mourning,

old Roman born

nobility -- yes?

[pzgndr]

But, as to the strategic possibilities of Italy actually becoming a major player in the Med, I don't know -- an alert British opponent could carefully (... best if the Germans do not notice TOO MUCH Med activity... and unfortunately, I didn't -- when Bill Macon did this to me in a game just recently) insert another BB and a Carrier or two and maybe also a HQ and an Air Fleet and a Bomber and BEF and Canadian mounted Army, and next thing you know...

Oh, how fleeting are our trade secrets!

I am finding the Med to be an interesting theater. Both the Axis and Allies can pursue an aggressive Med strategy against an unsuspecting and/or unprepared opponent and grab Alexandria or Tobruk, respectively. I've done both recently against human players. Of course, if you screw it up and get pushed back as happened in one game, the battle can stalemate or seesaw back and forth, depending on how aggressive the players are.

With FOW, surprise (or loss of surprise!) can be devastating. North Africa is so far removed that neither side can react quickly enough to counter an aggressive opponent - except with air. An air fleet and/or bomber op moved to Alexandria or Tobruk as soon as possible is probably the best hedge against being surprised. If nothing is happening down there, then redeploy the air. Air fleets and bombers definitely make the North Africa campaign more interesting either way.

[Desert Dave]

As originally posted by Bill Macon:

Oh, how fleeting are our trade secrets!

Well, now everyone that you play will have to be alert to your infamous Med strategy, yes?

Not to fret, Mr Bill, this can actually work to your advantage! :cool:

Your opponent must now be prepared for what is just maybe... POSSIBLE, in the event you unleash various (... though, not specifically named, nor where and how they deploy -- I shall save that for myself) forces, BUT, then again... you may not.

Which will surely create a certain and debilitating hesitation and confusion amongst your wily foes, yes? :confused:

(... ahem, but not for me, I am hereby hip to your nefarious and strange manuevers :eek: )

Thus, the burning question remains... will he? or won't he unveil -- the mysterious Med ploy?

And if he does, will the unsuspecting opponent learn from prior tactical errors? Indeed, we shall sooner or later see.

[Zeres]

Have you guys found that Italy gets more"bang" for their research buck? The reason I played that strategy against the A.I three times in a row was to see if the tech advances were a freak thing. But all three times, when I put all that plunder into Italian research, they out researched Germany ( even with fewer points). Almost always ending up with tech 5 jets and tech five indie by the end of 43. Plus several advances in other catagories. I'm curious to see what Hubert does to address this and other strange issues in the Med. But those issues (Suez, knocking italy out on the first turn, spawning limited units) have been talked about in detail elsewhere so I'll leave it at that. It's also strange to me that the Russian A.I seems to fight better than the Brittish A.I. The Brittish A.I cannnot stop Italy from becoming a powerhouse. In my opinion,the A.I for the Axis is better than it is for the allies. Although it has to be said that the A.I in SC is the best I've ever played in a game in this genre. Check ya later fellas.

[JerseyJohn]

Glad you enjoyed it Immers -- right on the money, as usual, regarding the inspiration -- kept picturing Charlie Chaplin and Jack Oakey doing Adolph and Bennie in "The Great Dictator."

----

It is a bit weird that Italy's technology seems to jump start itself and takes off for no logical reason. I'm sure that's also happened with me, but I didn't keep track of the details.

On the other hand, all research countries in this game have periods of lag and surges; with the Axis (where there's more to spend on research) I've had fields with five chits lag behind fields with only one -- I'm sure we've all seen it.

In one game I had the one chit on rocket technology, didn't increase it, and before long it was up to L-5 while Industrial technology and jets, which were what I really wanted, crawled --the result, a few very expensive rocket units that were fun to use but too immobile to decisively affect anything.

Ironically, after fleeing Italy and liberation (!), a group of Italian engineers in Germany took quickly to jet engines -- which till then they hadn't known existed -- and became the leading researchers in that technology.

---

Agreed that Mediteranean strategy is an interesting aspect of the game, a lot quirks -- also agreed the UK end of it isn't up to speed.

During WWII the Brits gave the Mediteranean and Middle East almost as much priority as the British Isles.

Until Rommel came along it was their only morale booster -- they were facing their favorite adversary, the Italian "gentlemen" who'd start wandering over to the British lines in neat formations, asking for directions to POW camps, then heading there, as fast as possible, sometimes unguarded, singing. As paraphrased from more than one Tommy: 'It was a pleasure dealing with them -- they didn't want to be any bother to anybody. But Gerry, he was a different matter altogether!'

Paraphrased German opinion of North Africa, '...and we'd ask, why are we here anyway, let the Italians have this stinking place.'

And through it all that damn crude oil contaminating the water holes, leading each side to accuse the other of fouling them during retreats!

---

I wonder what Italian policies would have been if some skilled geologists had visited Libya and dug a few holes in the right places around 1927 or '28 --?

[ October 29, 2002, 08:00 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[pzgndr]

Agreed that Mediteranean strategy is an interesting aspect of the game, a lot quirks -- also agreed the UK end of it isn't up to speed.

Dgaad's scenario mod has Britain starting with an understrength tank and HQ in Egypt, which provides Britian a better setup. Between that and some way to reinforce Egypt, as suggested previously, the Brits would have a few more options to pursue.

I just finished playing Dgaad's scenario against the AI as Axis. Interesting having Wavell's tanks attack Tobruk as soon as Italy enters! I immediately op moved a German air fleet to Tobruk to stabilize the situation. As soon as France fell in June 40, Bock and a tank were dispatched to North Africa. With German air support, the Italian fleet took out the British fleet around Alexandria and then limped home to rebuild. As soon as Italy could afford a HQ, an invasion force was dispatched to hit Alexandria from the east. This worked well, at least against the AI. Britain should reinforce Alexandria with at least another fleet and some air support, or risk losing their position in the eastern Med early in the game if the Axis decide to push that way. Remember FOW!

[ October 30, 2002, 12:08 PM: Message edited by: Bill Macon ]

[Zeres]

I've got to try Dgaad's mod. Sounds great.

[JerseyJohn]

dgaad's Mod is a vast improvement. Martinov also has a scenario posted for '39 that stregnthens Egypt and is also a vast improvement.

The first time I played the allies using the game scenario for '39 I was baffled by the British in the Middle East. The numbers make sense, they only had 35,000 or so men there at war's start, but they increased that quickly and put all their tanks and a lot of air support in the theater, which is nearly impossible in the game scenario, so I'm glad those two intrepid souls have created alternatives.

[Zeres]

I just want to beat the Axis on expert (exp +1) before I move on to the mods.( I can beat it the other way around) Does Dgaad's mod work with the "elite" interface mod or do I have to get rid of that before I try it. I'm also currently using a unit sprite Mod fron the "HQ".

[Flash Gordon]

Italian scientists seem to be exceedingly clever - they seem to outpace the German ones despite having less MMP's devoted to research.

I wish something could be done to take into account the Suez Canal - without it, there is NO way for the British to even mount an offensive in the desert unless they catch the Allied player flat footed and manage to slip some transports by Gibraltar.