Wildcat70 Posted January 1, 2003 Share Posted January 1, 2003 Hi all I'm new to the board and Have a quick question about the quality of the AI in single player mode but first a little about me. I'm in my early 30's and have been tabletop wargameing since my early teens over the years with marrage,job and a child my boardgameing time has been reduced to 1 or 2 times a month with some friends now also in my situation. some of the games we currently play are We the people, Paths of glory, Hannible, Battle Cry and the new starfleet battles cardgame. Back in our prime gameing years we played games like ASL, Diplomacy,SFB and R3R for reasons stated above our gameing has by necessity become more beer&pretzelish. anyway. The majority of my gameing is now done on the PC where I mostly play rts because with the exception of A&A and the new medieval total war I have found very few good turnbased grand strat games. Imagen my excitemant when i heard battlefront was makeing a turnbased grand strat game.This company did such a good job with combat mission( did my old ASL heart good when it came out ) that I was looking forward to the release of SC. Things came up however and I am only now trying out the game and evaulating as to whether to order it Which brings me to my question about the AI I have read in several reviews that the AI is not very good and the game is more suited to multiplayer. I was just wondering how you guys that have been playing a while feel as I will be primarily playing single player and am looking to be at least somewhat challenged. ( I do understand that nothing compares to the challenge of a human oppenent ) I'm just wonerding how challengeing is it as computer games go. Sorry this is so long Thanks in advance for any and all of your good opinions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J P Wagner Posted January 1, 2003 Share Posted January 1, 2003 Initial play agianst the AI at the highest difficulty level will be fun and a challenge especially as the Allies. But, like any other game, you will soon be able to understand much of what the AI will do, especially if you always try following a historical path....the fun truly comes in when you try 'ahistorical' ventures like attacking Spain, Turkey, Sweden ect. Try launching a UK attack into Turkey and see what happens...you will have a good time playing this game...enjoy! [ January 01, 2003, 11:55 AM: Message edited by: J P Wagner ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les the Sarge 9-1b Posted January 1, 2003 Share Posted January 1, 2003 Ouch wildcat some more paragraphs pleeeeeeease heheh. The AI is ok, it is not brain dead. It is possible to slight the game in it's favour so that your decisions have to be more briliant to get anywhere though. So you can play the game and get beaten a few times if you wish. The game is said to favour Axis, so playing the Allies will give you a rougher game if need be. It does seem that playing people is the best route to go if the game gets to easy to beat, but I suspect you will be a few games before you can sneer at the dim witted AI. My first game, and I was not having a lot of success keeping the Germans out of France on easy mode. But then I was just doing a play it and see what happens game. As such, if you want to win and win a lot, get the manual file up and read it, or expect to get beaten (or against a person, made to look rather dumb). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pzgndr Posted January 1, 2003 Share Posted January 1, 2003 Solo games against the AI have their limitations, but can be challenging and satisfying in their own way. I do play TCP/IP against "real" opponents and enjoy that kind of challenge. However, like many of us on a time budget who appreciate the convenience of solo games, I also enjoy my matches against the AI. It's a very good AI, compared to many I've played. Check out my 1939 and 1940 Campaign mods at Strategic Command HeadQuarters. I made modest tweaks to the default scenarios primarily to make them more interesting for games against the AI, and the text files explain them in more detail. Playing on Intermediate +1 settings as either Axis or Allies offers a challenging game. And if not, you can always crank it higher to Expert and/or +2 settings. The AI will occassionally offer some surprises at the operational level, but don't expect strategic brilliance or originality. Even so, it still takes effort to beat it. And if you're not careful, it WILL take advantage of you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jollyguy Posted January 1, 2003 Share Posted January 1, 2003 An excellent alternative for those with limited time is PBEM play. You get to play against humans within your own schedule. Many of us start a game TCP, then PBEM it back-and-forth until we can TCP again. I would highly advise you to buy the game. I'm also a long time wargamer, and let me tell you, SC is IT! Best strategic wargame I've ever played. You could also play hotseat with your buddies, and have a blast talking smack to each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted January 1, 2003 Share Posted January 1, 2003 Not too many years ago computer chess opponents were a joke. In my tournament days I couldn't play them because after a few games there was a tendancy to play against anticipated mistakes, which is a horrible and losing habit against really good players. Programs were good for replaying Grandmaster games and as a database. At this point, however, the best home chess programs on the highest settings defeat rated masters. Contrary to what some people have posted in other forums, chess is not a simple game nor one where the more booked player or the one with a better memory wins; there is a lot of on the spot thinking and machines were not supposed to be capable of doing it. One of the goals of wargame AI should be to develop programs that make quality decisions that aren't stylized. It happened in chess and it will happen in this area as well. I'm sure the vast majority of us remember war games where the computer AI was worse than imbeciliic. The serious SC players are now taking a chessic approach, memorizing openings and specific tactical sequences. The similarities are very deep. We already have terms like "The Dutch (Greek, Norwegian . . .) Gambit. In chess they have names like The King's Gambit, Queen's Gambit etc., one called the Ruy Lopez (after a 16th century Spanish Monk) where hundreds of theoretical variations run twenty-five to thirty moves deep. Really good players either know or can fake their way through those labyrinths and, of course, the computer just has it all in a database (usually the program has an option to turn it off). Any game with fixed opening positions is prone to this sort of theory approach. The only way to avoid it is to ramdomize the opening OBs and troop/naval placement at the start of each game, which a few people have suggested. We all seem to be fairly patient. So be patient a few more years and the big gripe will be that no human has a prayer against the AI. Yes, I know there is no dice throwing in chess -- and over the centuries many chess players have suggested incorporating it. [ January 01, 2003, 05:47 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supreme Axis Posted January 2, 2003 Share Posted January 2, 2003 My first few games vs the AI were entertaining. I would give the AI in SC a thumb & half up. You set it to Expert level and it can be hard if you follow historical guidlines to win. No Spain/Sweden/Iraq... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hueristic Posted January 2, 2003 Share Posted January 2, 2003 Originally posted by JerseyJohn: Any game with fixed opening positions is prone to this sort of theory approach. The only way to avoid it is to ramdomize the opening OBs and troop/naval placement at the start of each game, which a few people have suggested. Not to mention Static board. I'm a huge proponent of random map generators. I hate the Pacman mentality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hueristic Posted January 2, 2003 Share Posted January 2, 2003 Originally posted by Supreme Axis: My first few games vs the AI were entertaining. I would give the AI in SC a thumb & half up. You set it to Expert level and it can be hard if you follow historical guidlines to win. No Spain/Sweden/Iraq...Lol i set it to ex +2 first game and paid the price Went straight for romanian Oil. lol didn't know they would actually join by themselfs Then reilized there was no Oil Component it was just all Mpp's I got out of the habit of reading the manual first too time consuming and useualkly i play the game once and it's ****canned But not this one it's a classic. CIV2 multiplayer standing here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted January 2, 2003 Share Posted January 2, 2003 Hueristic "Not to mention Static board. I'm a huge proponent of random map generators. I hate the Pacman mentality." Mr. H., I'm wearing a cap today and have just taken it off to you! Man would I love to see this thing with a random map generator. Hubert's had his vacation, he's rested, let's really hit him with something! I considered suggesting randomizing at the time the North Atlantic forum was posted, but I thought it would be asking for too many things at once. You have a great idea here. I hope you make it a forum and I'll jump in immediately and hopefully a bunch of others will too. What I didn't mention earlier is after decades of activity, I stopped playing serious chess because it was too much like work -- let's keep this thing feeling like play. --- * Enjoy your accounts of eary experiences against the AI. But it obviously paid off as now you are a first rate Killer! Playing against you is like falling into a meatgrinder. [ January 01, 2003, 07:46 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hueristic Posted January 2, 2003 Share Posted January 2, 2003 Originally posted by Jollyguy: An excellent alternative for those with limited time is PBEM play. Very true You were my first Human opponent. Tuaght me alot right off the bat. Email me for a rematch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus Posted January 2, 2003 Share Posted January 2, 2003 Howdy: Not so much in response to the AI settings, but I find that if you play with Fog of War (FoW)in 'off', it is much better, either as allied or axis player. That way, that AI gets to 'see' what you're up to, and thus can counteract accordingly. If you've played The Ardennes Offensive, you'll know what I mean..keeping the FoW 'off' makes for a much tougher game, but only when playing against computer. That's my view, anyways...have fun... Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted January 2, 2003 Share Posted January 2, 2003 Augustus Never considered that but it makes sense. The computer doesn't usually do anything too subtle so it's really the human who becomes handicapped and, as you say, equalizing things. Good suggestion; unless, of course, the computer sees what the human is doing anyway! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les the Sarge 9-1b Posted January 2, 2003 Share Posted January 2, 2003 I would have to agree with the "need for random openings". In a game of A3R there are known and to experienced players absolute must do considerations, but the player always has the choice to set up the counters. Being stuck with an opening that never varies, will get dull in a wargame soon enough if the player has any interest at all in studying the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildcat70 Posted January 4, 2003 Author Share Posted January 4, 2003 Thanks for your input guys. I have ordered the game and am eagerly awaiting its arrival. This seems like a pretty friendly and thoughtfull gameing board. I'm looking forward to hopefuly makeing some worthwile contrabutions once I get a good handle on the game. just a side note on my posts, while I am college educated I never quite learned to spell real well so pardon my mispellings as the occure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildcat70 Posted January 5, 2003 Author Share Posted January 5, 2003 bump Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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