xwormwood Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 I don't like the way surprise contacts happen in SC. Subs can kill subs, transports can kill transports when a surprise contact was achieved. But on the other hand, when someone runs into my BATTLESHIP, i often lost even more than he did. So i have two points: if surprise damage between units is possible, it should be also possible in real combat; if someone stumbles into my fleets, he should suffer BADLY, because he ran blind into hell, not me. Now let see what the audience will tell me. PS: I never said that i alone would be able to conquer the USA (i am sure someone will again try to tell me that this will and would never been possible. So i beg in advance: please read my BOLD last statement two times and please BELIEVE me. Thank you.) http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=18;t=002503 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer39 Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 I don't like how the surprise contact works either. Since the turns represent somewhere between 2 weeks and 1 month intervals, I don't see how units moving can really be "surprised" especially to the point where they can lose massive strength points. Recon divisions most likely would have noticed the large formations SC represents on the approach. As for fleets, they had search planes and radar for just that reason, not to be surprised. A BB bumping into a Carrier should surprize the carrier more than the BB! Or are we to suppose that they are waiting for just that moment? Ok maybe if a land unti is entrenched, but I doubt that when a sub bumps into another sub that a ambush was planned. Same goes for when an Army bumps into an HQ or air fleet. The defender, not the attacker should be penalized in the latter cases. "Hey look at all those planes on the ground, I'm so surprized I'm going to let them bomb me!" I don't want to see surprize contacts go, just refined a bit. Maybe only entrenched units can surprize attackers? [ June 11, 2003, 11:25 AM: Message edited by: Panzer39 ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 I'm not crazy about surprise contacts either. Something less traumatic would be preferable but it has the good point of encouraging the building of bombers for recon purposes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer39 Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 What if the attacker simply lost their attack ability but did not take damage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 Works okay with me. It would have the net effect of halting a unit's movement before it arrived at it's objective, and nothing more. Which sounds good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer39 Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 Right, they would pause to re-evaluate the situation instead of charging in blind when there scouts report a contact in front. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeaMonkey Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 This is one of the inconsistencies with the general scale of SC. Let me explain this (surprise contact) as a tactical effect of the moving unit being in a "march mode" deployment, although I understand that movement is actually simultaneous. We all know that in RL surprise contact actually happens so in my reasoning the unit moving should only be subjected to adverse combat results if the unit it runs into had not moved in its previous turn (in defensive posture). This conclusion is a somewhat obscured when applied to naval units but still has some credence. Carrying this a bit further you could argue that Tank (armored) units would suffer less adverse results then infantry due to better protection when encountering "surprise contact" during movement. See there are certain aspects of wargaming that are included because they're just fun, and don't necessarily apply to reality of the scale/concept, sort of like paratroopers/special forces/artillery/etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer39 Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 Should units be surprised if they try to move to a hex that is bordered by an enemy or just when they try to enter a hex that an enemy unit is in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xwormwood Posted June 12, 2003 Author Share Posted June 12, 2003 excellent question! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeaMonkey Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 Good point Pz39. IMO it would be dependent on the degree of engagement of the forces occupying the same hex. Since a unit exerts influence (ZOC) into the surrounding 6 hexes, less damage would be suffered if the moving unit only tries to occupy the hex adjacent to the enemy (co-ZOCs). Trying to occupy the same hex of a previously unmoved enemy unit would undoubtly cause a higher degree of friction resulting in greater casualties for both sides with the defensive unit taking predominantly less. Again this situation (combat results) could be dependent upon other factors such as entrenchment level, terrain type, unit type, weather, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piumarcobaleno Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 Maybe a "surprised" unit should immediatly lose half of its readiness (and keep that low until her next turn): an army that was expecting a long forced march across a terrain that found herself in contact with the enemy shouls be at least a little upset.. So since scouting range for armies is 2, they can't get surprised if they move one hex par turn.. it seems fair to me that there should be a "suprise penalty", but more than in strenght points, it should be related to readiness... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts