Question concerning Sub-Raiding

[Dragonheart]

Does anybody know the maximum MPP damage subs can cause in the med. and north atlantic? IMO there is a max. amt regardless how many subs raid.

Maybe the presence of subs from different nations increase that max. amount?

In my games the max. amt. i noticed was 8MPP in the med and 46MPP in the atlantic.

[Iron Ranger]

Run a search for this subject title, it has a good break down on sub raiding

Topic: Clash of Steel had it all

Hyperlink test

[Blashy]

I was very disapointed at how little damage subraiding does.

40s is the max you'll get in MPP raiding for the Atlantic, I've never seen higher, even with 10 subs (yes I tried).

You should be able to bleed UK dry if you have more and more subs doing raids.

[Dragonheart]

Good info in that Clash of Steel topic.

I´m not 100 % sure but i saw already more than 40 points. I will playtest this as soon i have some time beside my ongoing games.

[DalmatiaPartisan]

Agree!!

subs raiding(and also ships raiding-as the famous "Atlantis" was) was one of the biggest British concerns in the beggining-UK didnt have resources to fight without colonies supply and Usa support. That means that subs raiding should cost Uk much more. My opinnion that maximum should be around 60-80 MPP per turn...

[Dragonheart]

Dalmatian Partisan

I don´t think so as such a high raiding rate would weaken GB to much. Every mod and every rule like the bidding system is to improve the chance for the allied player....such a high raiding rate would ruin the game.

Maybe if one implement additional MPP income from indian colonies of roughly 30-50 MPP for GB this would be justified.

[ October 06, 2003, 06:54 AM: Message edited by: Dragonheart ]

[Blashy]

Originally posted by Dragonheart:

Dalmatian Partisan

I don´t think so as such a high raiding rate would weaken GB to much. Every mod and every rule like the bidding system is to improve the chance for the allied player....such a high raiding rate would ruin the game.

Maybe if one implement additional MPP income from indian colonies of roughly 30-50 MPP for GB this would be justified.

Not really, if the Axis is investing in subs heavily for raiding, this means it is not using those resources elswhere, which could mean, slowing progressin of invading minor countries or difficulties in Russia.

[Dragonheart]

Blashy .....subs are not only good for raiding but also for destructing of the royal navy..and furthermore for a preperation of a operation sealion.

An axis player never builts subs only with the only purpose to raid.

So its a more or less a decision to finish off russia when producing armies or to finish off GB when producing CA,Subs. (or sometimes at least a try to finish off )

[Iron Ranger]

Look at the numbers in the Clash of Steel post - between the London Blitz attacks and a serious Sub campain you can ALMOST bring UK to her knee's and very open for Sealion (it will dilute your attack on Russia however)

40 Alantic sub

20 Med Sub

40+ air raids on ports

Total: 100+ MPPs lost each turn out of 135 (?)

[Iron Ranger]

My opinnion that maximum should be around 60-80 MPP per turn...

Its already at 60 MPPs, going any higher would destroy 1/2 her production, thats simply too much I feel. UK is by far the weakest Major power and quite often she has the most expensive job - Air/Naval support.

[Dragonheart]

Just tested it...maximum raid in the north atlantic is 40 MPP regardless how many subs,regardless how expierenced,regardless which level and regardless if different nations are involved.

So 4-5 subs should be enough to do max damage on GB MPP´s. (for the north atlantic)

[Shaka of Carthage]

If you look closely at the numbers, you'll see that in SC you can do the same amount of damage that you can in COS. The Med and Atlantic maximums in both systems work out to about the same... assuming you commit the resources.

The difference is in the MPP damage to the ports and cities in SC. An Axis player trying to bomb the ports and cities of the UK doesn't work out as well in SC. It's more cost effective for the Axis player to use those Air assets to go after neutrals. So while its possible to starve the UK of MPPs in SC, no one hardly ever does it, because the Axis have more lucrative targets elsewhere.

Btw, in SC its 15 MPPs in the Med (5 per Gibralter, 5 per Malta and 5 per Alexandria). I've seen as high as 48 MPPs taken from the UK, but of course it was later in years, after the UK fleet has been totally destroyed. Don't forget that the higher supply level of your subs, the more damage it will do, until it reaches the maximum. The maximum in the Atlantic however, is much harder to determine, because of the larger number of hexes, even though its only two (2) ports.

[ October 06, 2003, 08:26 PM: Message edited by: Shaka of Carthage ]

[Iron Ranger]

The difference is in the MPP damage to the ports and cities in SC. An Axis player trying to bomb the ports and cities of the UK doesn't work out as well in SC. It's more cost effective for the Axis player to use those Air assets to go after neutrals. So while its possible to starve the UK of MPPs in SC, no one hardly ever does it, because the Axis have more lucrative targets elsewhere.

So true, with the tech AA L1 bombing UK ports can be costly. But there are side advantages, gaining exp and bleeding dry the UK air fleets, especially if you can gain a Jets or LR advantage.

Btw, in SC its 15 MPPs in the Med (5 per Gibralter, 5 per Malta and 5 per Alexandria).

Its 10 for Alexandra, test it.

I've seen as high as 48 MPPs taken from the UK

Interesting that both you and Dragonheart have noted a value over 40 (max that I been able to get). I wounder if your doing something 'special' or if its due to a time/political event, ie after USA enters or after 1943? Could you give more detail on how you raided that number(48).

[Shaka of Carthage]

Interesting that you say Alexandria gives 10 MPPs. I've never been able to get more than 5, but it could be because of the supply level of the sub, etc, so I'll take your word for it.

Thats one of the beauties of SC, even after all this time, there are so many subtle things out there.

Over 48 MPPs on UK... Its late 1942, the UK fleet is gone, US has entered but only has a Carrier and one other ship. US Carrier is trying to evict the German units from Canada, so no effect in Atlantic. Axis control the UK port in Scotland, from where there are three (3) German subs in the Ireland/UK sea area north of Liverpool port. There are another two (2) German subs south of Liverpool port, operating from Brest port. There are also three (3) Italian subs, that at times have operated from the Canadian port (Axis controlled) as well as south of Liverpool.

I get big numbers when the subs are in supply, numbers seem to make a big drop when the subs are out of supply.

I keep moving the Axis subs around, trying to find the "sweet" hexes, where I can get the most convoy damage. Since the UK is down to 100 or so MPPs (UK controls Ireland), losing 40+ MPPs a turn, hurts my opponent.

Of course, the subs are constantly getting bombed by Allied air, so I have to move them back to ports and rebuild constantly. Since I'm playing it as a limit game, the Axis air (4 German and 2 Italian) are all committed to the Eastern Front, the few Western Allied units can bomb with no fear of retribution.