Alternate Starting Position Ideas

[Edwin P.]

Several other threads have suggested alternate starting positions & forces for minor country nations.

What are your thoughts of some alternative starting positions and forces?

Suggestions include:

1. Alternate Greek Starting Postions

50% Standard

10% Move Greek Army to capital & Corps to Border

10% Move Army to Captial (entrenchment level 1) and move corps to adjacent hex.

5% Move army to captial (entrenchment level 2), recall other army from the border to hex adjacent to captial (entrenchment level 1) and station corps on the border with Albania.

25% "1 army in capital, 2 corps + HQ around capital, 1 corps in mountains (1 hex nearer Athens with HQ between it and the capital)" - (as suggested by Santabear)

2. Alternate Irish Starting Forces

70% Standard

25% Standard + 1 Irish partisan unit.

100% that a partisan unit appears in Dublin if Brits Disband or move out of Dublin (suggested by Condor)

3. Italy

For every Allied Ship above 5 in the Med there is a 15% chance that all Italian Navy ships start in the Adriatic Sea near Venice.

Example:

5 UK Ships in the Med - 10%

6 UK Ships in the Med - 15%

7 UK Ships in the Med - 30%

8 UK Ships in the Med - 45%

9 UK Ships in the Med - 60%

10 UK Ships in the Med - 75%

11 UK Ships in the Med - 90%

12 UK Ships in the Med - 100%

For every turn a UK or French ship is in the Adriatic sea Italian war Readiness should increase by 30%. Any allied transport entering the Adriatic should increase Italian war readiness by 100%.

If Allies DOW Italy then 50% for a Corps to appear in Bari (throws a wrench into the DOW Italy and take Bari gambit).

4. Norway

If Germany attacks Sweden before Norway then Norway has a 50% chance to join the allies.

5. Sweden (as suggested by JerseyJohn)

If Germany attacks Norway then Sweden gets a HQ unit.

If Germany attacks Sweden before Norway then Sweden has a 50% to get a HQ unit (the effect of surprise)

Spain(built on suggestions from JerseyJohn)

Spain has a 25% to mobilize a Franco HQ unit if Germany DOW on Spain.

If Germany attacks Spain after attacking Vichy France then Spain has a 50% to receive a Franco HQ unit and an additional corps unit. This reflects the emergency mobilization of the Spanish Army.

If Germany attacks Spain after Vichy surrenders then 100% for Spain to reveive Franco HQ unit and two 50% chances to receive an additional Corps unit(s) (max +2 corps)

If Allies DOW on Portugal then 50% for Spain to receive Franco HQ Unit.

Thus

Germany DOW on Vichy France Before DOW on Spain = 50% 2 Extra Units for Spain (HQ + Corps)

Vichy France

If Germany DOW on Spain before Attacking Vichy France then 50% Free French Fleet near Marseilles moves to Algiers for Safety and 20% that Free French Corps in Marseilles moves to Algiers or Beruit (75%/25%) leaving behind a French partisan unit.

[ May 16, 2003, 06:43 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[Shaka of Carthage]

Greece

The problem with these starting postions is the fact that the Axis can do a amphib invasion. Eliminate or tone it down and it works out fine.

Ireland

Problem here is a little more difficult. If I remember correctly, I read somewhere that Ireland offered Axis subs a covert base for limited supplies or repairs.

So real question is why UK never invaded Ireland. Anyone know the answer to that?

Within SC, we need to have the same constraint that the UK had. Otherwise, even with Partisan units and the fact that you cannot get your units off the island, Ireland is still a juicy target for UK at the right time.

Then, especially in Ireland's case, this brings up indirectly, the use of Air units. Cause of you are gonna take Ireland, you mass air to eliminate the defender or reduce them significantly.

Even though I have "enhancements" for all the other issues I see, this is one I have not be able to come up with a good "enhancement" for.

Speaking of which, if anyone can help me understand the air combat, please do so. When I look at the combat odds, I can't get them to agree with the factors of Air Attack and Air Defense.

[ May 15, 2003, 09:11 PM: Message edited by: Shaka of Carthage ]

[Iron Ranger]

It would be nice if all minors (those with more then 1 unit) had 3-4 starting OOB positions. And they had a break down/ persentage based on who was attacking. Right now only Turkey and Finland (Greece?) have OB that adjust. Spain, Yougoslova, LC, and Sweden should all have changing OOB (not norway).

[Edwin P.]

Changing the positions of the starting units and adding a partisan unit or two will never change the ultimate outcome of an invasion by a major power.

It can delay the conquest or make it more expensive for the conquerer. So a 1 turn conquest becomes a 2 or 3 turn conquest. It might give time for assistance to arrive from Allied forces (ie British Navy in the case of Greece).

Placing an army in the capital of Greece makes it harder to take than having it garrisoned by a corps. Having an army unit appear next to the capital means that only 3 units can land not 4. Adding a partisan unit would futher limit this to a 2 hex invasion.

Another option is to assume that the defenders get advance warning of the attack and that their unit in the capital starts out entrenched.

Italy

Now the allies always know the location of the starting Italian Fleet.

Would it be wide to assume that if the Italians saw the Allied fleets massing in the Med that they would have recalled their naval units to the relative safety of the Adriatic Sea? Thus restricting attacking surface ships to a two hex front.

You could say that;

For every Allied Ship above 5 in the Med there is a 15% chance that all Italian Navy ships start in the Adriatic Sea.

Example:

5 UK Ships in the Med - 0%

6 UK Ships in the Med - 15%

7 UK Ships in the Med - 30%

8 UK Ships in the Med - 45%

9 UK Ships in the Med - 60%

10 UK Ships in the Med - 75%

11 UK Ships in the Med - 90%

I would also say that for every turn a UK or French ship is in the Adriatic sea that Italian war Readiness increases by 30%.

[ May 15, 2003, 11:14 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[JerseyJohn]

Neutrals should have their strongest unit starting in the capital.

The Greek and Finnish units should be in supply.

Sweeden, Spain, Poland, and Greece should start with one of an army in the capital, otherwise there's little point in giving them armies at all as they're bypassed.

Finland generally doesn't enter till after the Winter War would have ended so it shouldn't own the hex adjacent to Lenningrad or the eastern forest hexes as those areas were ceded. This would also mean their units would start the game farther west, easing their opening supply problem. Mannerheim should also be incluced here as an HQ.

The Greek situation is the worst because the two armies not only start out with no supplies but aren't able to withdraw to supplied hexes. Historically they counterattacked and launched an offensive into Albania -- absolutely impossible in the game. They either need to be withdrawn a hex or Greece needs an HQ.

Spain should have Franco as an opening HQ and I think Sweeden should also start with one -- they have two armies, a corps and an air fleet, why not include an HQ?

Aside from the emphasis being on defense of the capital, I think some random placement, particularly with regard to Italian Naval placement as mentioned by Edwin, would also be a good idea.

[ May 15, 2003, 11:20 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Edwin P.]

Excellent observations JerseyJohn, as usual.

Any thoughts on Spain and Turkey?

Any comments as to the location of the starting Italian fleet? See my post above.

[ May 15, 2003, 11:19 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[JerseyJohn]

Thanks Edwin and a good Thread, again as always.

Regarding Spain, I think you posted while I was editing as I covered that on the rebound.

With Turkey it isn't as important, in my opinion, because there isn't as much gambiting possible. But I think there should be an Army in Istanbul and probably an HQ in Turkey as well.

Against most human players I usually need to pull the entire Italian Navy into the Adriatic upon entering the game. Historically it was probably seperated with squadrons at Naples, Tarranto and Venice, but in the game I don't think it would be a bad idea to just start the entire navy near Venice. That way, if an Allied player wants to go after it he's got to go down a cul du sac and have worries about his ships running short of supplies while they're fighting.

[ May 15, 2003, 11:34 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Edwin P.]

As for Spain - Yes Franco in all cases.

As for Sweden - If Germany attacked Norway first they should have a HQ unit as they would have begun to mobilize.

If Germany attacked Sweden before Norway I would say that Sweden should have an HQ unit only 50% of the time to reflect the effect of a surprise German assualt.

Also if the Germans attack Sweden first there should be a chance that Norway (say 50%) will join the Allies. This would allow the Brits to operate in Air Units and land reinforcements while the Germans were busy attacking Sweden.

Thus the Germans have a Choice

1. Attack Norway First = Swedes Get HQ

2. Attack Sweden First = 50% Norwegians Join the Allies

[ May 15, 2003, 11:33 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[JerseyJohn]

Good fine points. Yes, I think there should be some element of surprise factor. The suggestion of Norway joining the Allies is a good idea -- although the invasions of Denmark and Norway didn't jolt Belgium and Holland out of their neutrality hallucination. On the other hand, Sweden as Norway's neighbor would have been more alarming to that country than Scandinavian invasions were to the Low Countries.

[ May 15, 2003, 11:40 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Edwin P.]

Egads the Norwegians joining the Axis. :eek:

[JerseyJohn]

Just noticed that little slip-up -- Quizling would have been working very hard indeed! Been staring at the computer screen on a double shift today, filling in numbers and squinting at electrodes -- I'd quit except my boss, me, wouldn't allow it; self imposed tyranies are the worst! Anyhow, I'm not seeing straight at the moment. Made the correction, thanks for pointing it out --

[ May 15, 2003, 11:45 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[santabear]

Another thought-provoking thread from the dynamic duo...

1. Introducing uncertainty into the now-routine invasions of Norway and Sweden would benefit the game greatly and your ideas sound good.

2. Turkey definitely needs an HQ unit--they are suckers for an amphib. invasion a la Greece. Another unit near Ankara would help, too.

3. Greece is a trickier problem since there are two issues: Out of supply troops in the mountains and no defence of the capital. Trying to solve these problems with an HQ plus a unit near the captial probably makes the Greek army stronger than it should be historically. My suggestion would be: 1 army in capital, 2 corps + HQ around capital, 1 corps in mountains (1 hex nearer Athens with HQ between it and the capital). This would put the strongest unit in Athens, and block three amphib. invasion hexes. It would also give the Allied player the option to move the mountain corps back to defend Athens or to move it and the HQ up to attack Albania. In any case, the Brits would have to join in at some point if the Greeks envision recreating the glories of ancient Sparta.

[JerseyJohn]

santabear

Good Ideas.

Perhaps Turkey is more vulnerable than I realized; certainly the Dardenelles are and, as you point out, it might require more than the conversion of a corps to an army at Istanbul to remedy the situation.

Greece is definitely a problem and a delemma. As you significantly point out, making it less vulnerable to a blitz without making it too strong is a difficult problem. I think you've found the solution, a combination of blocking landing hexes and creating an HQ, one army at Athens and the other exchanged for 2 corps -- sounds good. The Greek counter offensive into southern Albania, historically, was mainly the occupation of ground vacated by disgruntled Italians trying to get back to their supply base. So it makes sense historically as well.

[ May 16, 2003, 02:54 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Codename Condor]

Great ideas, 1 problem about this game is the routine, no big surprises: i take france i embark 2 armies 1 corps i take norway, more embarks i take sweden, more embarks in med i take vicky...

My 2 cents worth:

Greece:

With 1 HQ and troops near capital it would be a real nightmare, no worthwhile attacking.

Instead, 1 army in capital (100%), the other troops 1, 2 or 3 hexes away from capital with some kind of probability.

Ireland:

If u let em have partisans it'd mean more cannon fodder for brits carriers, fleet and planes to get experience.

Instead, partisans in dublin if brits disband or move corps away from dublin (100%).

Italy:

1 corps in now unnocupied Bari city.

1 corps in Tripolitania instead of 1 army.

Some kind of probability to move sub and carrier in Adriatic depending allied med fleet (higher than Edwin suggest)

For every turn a UK or French ship is in the Adriatic sea Italian war Readiness should increase by 30%. Any allied transport entering the Adriatic should increase Italian war readiness by 100%. (agreed)

Norway:

If Germany attacks Sweden before Norway then Norway has a 50% chance to join the allies.(agreed)

5. Sweden (as suggested by JerseyJohn)

If Germany attacks Norway then Sweden gets a HQ unit.

If Germany attacks Sweden before Norway then Sweden has a 50% to get a HQ unit (the effect of surprise)

[Codename Condor]

Great ideas, 1 problem about this game is the routine, no big surprises: i take france i embark 2 armies 1 corps i take norway, more embarks i take sweden, more embarks in med i take vicky...

My 2 cents worth:

Greece:

With 1 HQ and troops near capital it would be a real nightmare, no worthwhile attacking.

Instead, 1 army in capital (100%), the other troops 1, 2 or 3 hexes away from capital with some kind of probability.

Ireland:

If u let em have partisans it'd mean more cannon fodder for brits carriers, fleet and planes to get experience.

Instead, partisans in dublin if brits disband or move corps away from dublin (100%).

Italy:

1 corps in now unnocupied Bari city.

1 corps in Tripolitania instead of 1 army.

Some kind of probability to move sub and carrier in Adriatic depending allied med fleet (higher than Edwin suggest)

For every turn a UK or French ship is in the Adriatic sea Italian war Readiness should increase by 30%. Any allied transport entering the Adriatic should increase Italian war readiness by 100%. (agreed)

Norway:

If Germany attacks Sweden before Norway then Norway has a 50% chance to join the allies.(agreed)

Sweden:

If Germany attacks Norway then Sweden gets a HQ unit.

If Germany attacks Sweden before Norway then Sweden has a 50% to get a HQ unit (the effect of surprise)

(Agreed)

Spain:

Franco HQ (100%)

Finland:

Mannerheim HQ (100%)

[JerseyJohn]

Condor

Agree twice on the points double stated and once on the HQ points only listed in the second part.

I've experimented in scenarios by placing a French HQ in Greece and you're right, it becomes a tough nut to crack. Incidentally, after France falls the French HQ goes <POOF!> if it's still in Greece, guess French units need to be on British territory to become free, so guess next time I'll use a UK HQ there. Generally, if the Axis wants to hit the place hard enough it falls even with an HQ and air fleet, but the mountains make it pretty tough from the north.

Italy:

1 corps in now unnocupied Bari city.

1 corps in Tripolitania instead of 1 army.-- Codename Condore

I'd suggest the Tripoli Army be split into two corps, one of which stays in Tripoli and the other is placed in Tobruck, allowing the Italian Army there the option of either moving into Egyptian Oblivion (supply problems) as was done historically, or by used later in conjunction with an HQ for the same purpose.

The problem is an ambitious Allied player might find it a bit too easy to grab Tripoli as the historical obstacles aren't represented in the game.

[ May 16, 2003, 05:43 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Jeff Gilbert]

Great thread. One question however. I do not see where I can add an Headquarters that doesnot already exist. Am I missing something? :confused:

[Codename Condor]

Of course Jersey John, Greece falls if u attack it hard enuff, but u have to use a lot of effort and give readiness to Russia enter in the war if u do it soon. The set up i exposed is to disallow the strategy of declaring war on Greece at the same time that Russia and make an anphibious assault with rumanian and Bulgaria armies (3 armies and 1 coprs needed) and tho taking Greece in 1 turn.

Gilbert, of course these HQs doesnt exist, this is a post giving ideas for SC2. Hope they exist soon!

[Edwin P.]

Condor,

I like your idea of partisans appearing in Dublin if the Brits disband or move out of Dublin.

[JerseyJohn]

Jeff

The suggestion is to have minor nation HQs that are specifically assigned to the more powerful neutral countries; they'd be in the preset OB.

Condor

Yes, I agree with your idea; it would solve the problem in the game scenarios without making Greece too strong to be worth attacking.

I think it would be good though, in terms of the scenario editor (campaign maker we'd like it to become) if the the larger minors could also have HQs and be able to fight on either side. Have it where Germany must be the Axis and France/UK/USSR must be the Allies, but all the others (including Poland, Italy and the USA) can either be assigned to either side or made neutral. Some combinations would be ridiculous, but some might prove very interesting. by including the potential for minor country HQs in this mix some of them, especially Poland, could have good potential as hypothetical Axis or Allied minors.

[ May 16, 2003, 07:59 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[KDG]

Don't forget to randomize Russia's starting positions as well. I'd also include Yugo in there, as well as Iraq (definetly add a 2nd unit).

Maybe even the lowlands, Turkey, etc.

Come up with a format where every country has a default starting position and number of starting units, then come up with 3 or 4 alternates, make each one an equal pct of occuring. Make sure at least one position is easier to take (say Greece or Yugo with only 2 units) and a couple starting positions that are harder (add 1 additional unit to a country, adjacent to the capital)etc.

[Codename Condor]

Originally posted by Edwin P.:

Condor,

I like your idea of partisans appearing in Dublin if the Brits disband or move out of Dublin.

I thought this was the best to avoid brit units to get experience, but im thinking now about a trick allies could do, to move out from dublin and then use the partisan as a practice target, so maybe partisans should only show up if the unit in dublin is disbanded.

[Edwin P.]

There are two aspects to the UK attacking Ireland;

1. The experience that they gain and the damage they take

2. The time that it takes to take the Island.

If partisans appear in the Capital Dublin would it make sense to have them start at entrenchment level 2 or should partisan units have an air defence bonus of 2 instead of 1? Why? I assume that partisan units are less likely to travel in well organized formations.

[ May 17, 2003, 02:15 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[Codename Condor]

Edwin

With 3 carriers and a BB the partisan is dead in 1 turn and without casualties. If the brits have disbanded the corps they need another corps and to desembark it in the Dublin. The problem is if the corps has not been disbanded and is waiting outside Dublin to retake the capital, then to move out again, wait for another partisan to appear, the slaughter, then proceed to Dublin, and again and again, and the carriers and BB, gaining cheap experience. So, your solution of improving partisan defense is no good, if the partisan is only 5 points strong. If u allow partisan to have 8 hit points then i would say i like yer idea about an air defense bonus of 2.

[Edwin P.]

Condor

Thanks for the analysis. I did not think of the UK using carriers.