Problems with America (Please read!)

[Moon]

Interesting to what kind of discussion a post about some game options can lead. Anyway...

There are three options where this thread can go from here - come back to the discussion of game options OR get moved to the General Discussion Forum OR be locked up and the key thrown away. Your choice.

[Carl G. E. von Mannerheim]

k, every one back to my original question. Dont you think, that even when set to random, the US should always have to enter by december 1941

[Norse]

<snipped the thread to stop the off-topic discussion>

[ August 05, 2002, 08:54 PM: Message edited by: Norse ]

[Sol Invictus]

I think it should be probable but not automatic.

[Carl G. E. von Mannerheim]

i do think it should cuz the japs werent gonna delay thier attack, and germany wouldve supported their ally

[husky65]

Originally posted by Norse:

At first you stated that Japan and USSR had not gone to war until 1945. Then I gave you a quick roundup of what led to the battles between them in 39 and 40, and now you have changed your original point from "they have not been at war", to "Japan did not attack USSR to support Germany". I quote:

Some of the most dishonest, out of context quoting I have seen in years - given that the context is the fact that Japan was not obligated to support Germanys wars of conquest and conversely Germany was not obligated to support Japans wars of conquest, I am at a loss to consider your post anything more than a blatant distortion of my post.

If we follow the absurdist line that you propose, the the USA directly supported a Nazi attack on the UK, because they had been at war with Britain before also.

-------------

My Original statement (below) on the subject, makes it clear that to get to the dishonest point you have arrived at you actually have to snip all of the context, including the Dec 7 date from around the bracketed part -

"A few problems with the above, the axis alliance did not require other members to assist one another in attacking other countries (note Japan did not attack the USSR), and so what if Japan has a falling out with Germany?

Japan had already crossed the Rubicon on Dec 7, there was no going back."

-------------

I was uncertain if I should consider you simply stupid or totally dishonest, the above makes it quite clear which applies.

but you must understand that what happened in Europe in many ways concerned the rest of the world (USA included)

Rubbish,

Can you please be so kind and inform me in what is rubbish with my above statement?

Another example of extremely selective snippage - I told you why it was rubbish - "the USA stayed out of the war in Europe until Germany declared war on the USA - the US people would not tolerate the US declaring war."

The US Pres told Churchill that he could not get the support of the US people to enter the war, well documented historical fact.

Are you saying India would benefit from a defeated Britain?

No, I'm saying that a US war in the Pacific would have - the Indians and Australians would have been devoting their entire resources and the USA the vast majority of their forces to defeating Japan.

"Do you see the level of concern the US people had for their merchant seamen? - their bodies were washing up on the shores in droves and they still did not want to turn off the lights."

Hm, if this is true, then it is a very chilling fact.

It is well documented historical fact, Admiral Doenitz named his operation "Paukenschlag", or "Drumbeat". From January 1942, Doenitz ordered up to 12 U-Boats on continual patrol - from the Gulf of Mexico to the heart of America's Eastern Seaboard. Between January and March of 1942, the U-Boats sunk 1.25 million tons of shipping, aided by the bright lights of New York, Miami and Atlantic City - all of which initially refused to impose a wartime blackout for fear of impacting tourism.

[Carl G. E. von Mannerheim]

thats not the point!! we need to talk about the option for the US in the game or this thread will be locked!

Good points though...

[Norse]

Poor husky, I pity you. Your bad attitude will not bring you great fortune Now stop your whining, or Moon will lock this thread up.

[ August 05, 2002, 10:36 PM: Message edited by: Norse ]

[Norse]

Mannerheim, you know you can check "allow rules to be changed during the game". If you want USA to join the war either before they historically did, or no later than december 1941, then you should keep it at random till december 1941, then change it to "historical". That should do it You could make this a rule with someone you play with.

USA always seems to join the war within 1941 in my games though

~Norse~

[husky65]

Originally posted by Norse:

Poor husky, I pity you. Your bad attitude will not bring you great fortune Now stop your whining, or Moon will lock this thread up.

Yawn, so far my attitude has done very well for me, thank you anyway.

However, your blatant dishonesty clearly has not benefited you (I note you at least have enough shame to have since gone back and deleted your own post - frankly that just shows that you know it was dishonest and knew it when you posted it no doubt, I also note the lack of apology for taking my post wildly out of context).

However, if anyone wants to see the full text of it, I have a copy - something I learned long ago, when dealing with the stupid and the dishonest, keep a copy of the evidence.

Re 'Whining', I don't consider it whining to point out the deliberately dishonest in a public forum, I consider it a public service (it helps others avoid wasting time on you).

Perhaps if you had the courage of your convictions you would not have removed your sad little post, would you?

[Guest Mike]

Originally posted by Carl Von Mannerheim:

k, every one back to my original question. Dont you think, that even when set to random, the US should always have to enter by december 1941

No, because then it wouldn't be random!!

You might like to think of the chances of US entry into the war as representing the chances of Japanese attack on the Hong Kong, Malaya, Burma and other bits of the British Empire of the time.

Any such attack would inevitably draw the US into the war as the US wouldn't have liked Japan taking over the Dutch east Indies and Malaya & Burma one little bit.

IIRC Japanese war planning recognised that attacking the British and Dutch in 1941 would inevitably bring the USA into the war in a matter of days anyway, so there was nothign to be lost by the sneak attack at Pearl Harbour.

[ August 06, 2002, 12:10 AM: Message edited by: Mike ]

[BloodyBucket]

How about this:

Random US entry, and automatic after December 7th 1941.

If entry is made before 12-7-41, MPP available for European Theater is increased markedly until 12-7-41.

[Norse]

lmao @ husky, you just can't leave it a rest can you I deleted the post because Moon asked us to get back on topic or he would lock this thread up. It had nothing to do with you, period. Leave it at this, there's nothing more to discuss.

~Norse~

[husky65]

Originally posted by Norse:

lmao @ husky, you just can't leave it a rest can you

says the person who tries to put the boot in one last time.

I deleted the post because Moon asked us to get back on topic or he would lock this thread up. It had nothing to do with you, period. Leave it at this, there's nothing more to discuss.

~Norse~

Then you say you stand by your lies, have deleted them, yet want to get the last say on the subject? interesting to say the least.

[Moon]

Locking her up, because some people don't listen (well, some do. Thanks Norse). Carl, feel free to post a new on topic thread if you like.

Martin