National Characteristics and Manpower

[SpitfireMarkX]

for the Canadian thing. Our 3, by Jan41. Divisions were huge, like 100,000 a piece. Also Airforce was huge, by 100,000+men, Navy was still growing, id like there to be a way where Canada starts with a corps, in Jan 41 gets an Army, then 44 Canada gets another corps. Also it would be nice if there was a Canadian cruser, airfleet or carrier but what ya going to do.

[Edwin P.]

Shaka, your force analysis is really impressive. I also like the concept of giving countries: ie US and Italy MPP to allow them to build units that are not shown on the map.

This also allows each country more strategic flexibility.

[Shaka of Carthage]

Brad T

I don't agree with your suggestion that they get a Corp, Army and an additional Corp. That would be around sixteen (16) divisions. They didn't have that many combat divisions.

Here is my understanding regarding the Canadian military.

Canadian divisions followed the British model, with slight differences that tended to make them stronger. Even so, the Infantry divisions are around 18,000 men and the Armored divisions around 15,000.

Combat divisions by '42 were five, '43 eight, '44 thru end of war six.

D-Day the Canadians had 2 Infantry Divisions, 1 Armor Division and 1 Armor Brigade. Which were all of the Canadian divisions deployed overseas at that time.

1st Canadian Infantry Div went to England in '39. Canadian Armored Div went to England in late '41, stayed there until '43 when it joined the 1st Canadian Inf Div in Italy. Those two units formed the 1st Canadian Corp. Also was a 4th Canadian Armored Div, Independent Armored Brigade and numerous smaller units. 5th Canadian Armored Div remained in Canada.

Btw, this brings up an interesting point. Both the British and the Canadians formed Armored Divisions because they required less manpower than an Infantry Division (and the US helped with the logisitcal requirements). But they didn't use them like the Germans did. Rather, they used them more like an Infantry division that was armored.

While there were a large number of units in Canada, they weren't really combat divisions. But it doesn't matter, since there is no possiblity of the Axis amphib invading Canada.

Do agree that the Canadian Navy was large, but if I remember correctly, they were mainly employed in a convoy escort role. I don't remember there being any large capital ships like Cruisers or Battleships. And the carriers, were merchant escort carriers, not captial carriers like the British or US had.

[Shaka of Carthage]

Edwin P

Thanks. I am just trying to get the nations to reflect what they had historically.

[Shaka of Carthage]

USSR

How to turn the Reds into Russians

The real Second with the Most?

Summary

Combat divisions .................... military manpower

Nation .......'39 ......'40.....'41......'42.....'43........K = 1,000

USSR ....... 194......200....220.....250.....350...... 20,000K?

Russian numbers are tough. Especially military manpower. I have numbers ranging from 12.5 to 40 million. I went with some sources that claimed the numbers were four times that of the French and roughly equal total population after the first year of the war.

Units

Here is what I am trying to accomplish.

</font>

• Initial 120 western divisions.</font>
• Quickly mobilize another 60 divisions.</font>
• For a year, you can rebuild any of the 180 divisions you lose as a Russian "Army" (ie SC Corp).</font>
• Moscow threatened, Siberians can reinforce.</font>
• Year has passed, new style divisions give Russians another 160 divisions, as well as the newly raised 3 Shock Armies and 3 Guard Armor Corps.</font>

These are the steps to accompish that.
</font>

• Given intial MPPs of 5250.</font>
• Can build fifteen (15) additional Corps.</font>
• For every Army/Corp you lose, you can replace it with a Corp, for a maximum of 32 Corps.</font>
• Must retain a MPP balance of 3600 for a year.</font>
• After that year, you can build additional 20 Corps, 3 Armies and 3 Tanks. Total maximum units at this point is now 52 Corps, 3 Armies and 3 Tanks.</font>

Three (3) Air units.

Tech: Air 1, Indus Tech 5, Flak 2, A/T 0, Tanks 2, all else standard.

Detail

Russians are difficult for current SC. There was no such thing as a standard formation or to&e.

Intial

Army equals eight divisions, Corp equals four divisions, Armor equals four divisions.

Initial starting units for the Russians vary, depending on when they enter the war. I am using the 11 armies, 6 Corps and 2 Armor numbers. That gives 120 divisions.

Pre-war, the Russians had standard to&e's that the units were organized by. By '41, the leadership of these units had been purged, equipment shortages had started and the units were not fully mobilized. Two months after the Germans invaded, most of these units no longer existed.

Different matter in the East though. The Siberian divisions kept the pre '41 to&e's and did not suffer the leadership purges the western units did (mainly because they performed well in combat against the Japanese, versus the western units poor performance against the Finns). Once Germany invaded, the Siberian units had time to fully mobilize and had more artillery in there divisions than western divisions. And they had combat expereince against the Japanese.

After the western divisions were destroyed the first time, the Russians rebuilt them. Didn't have enough heavy weapons to equip everyone, so they reduced the numbers the divisions got and concentrated some of the A/T and AA weapons into higher formations. Those divisions started getting destroyed.

One Year Later

Corp equals eight divisions.

Started to rebuild them again, but this time with an official to&e recognizing the division was no larger than 9,000 men. About half that of an equiv western division. Even so, alot of these units were understrength. And even though they were creative about combat power (ie mortars instead of field artillery), they did not have the combat power of a western higher level formation (hence, only can build Corps).

Shock and Guard units were formed, but were limited in number. It would be nice, in a future SC, to form them by combining two experienced Corps into a Army.

The other thing that is difficult to reflect properly, is the command and control issue. The leadership purges forced the Russians to adopt command and control policies that other nations did not use. It also resulted in a superior form of operational warfare that everyone more or less copied thru the 1990's. Best I can do in SC, is to restrict the Russian units to Corps. It would be nice to reflect the command and control problems by random readiness losses and inability of units to move. The Russian C&C issue really deserves another topic all by itself.

[ March 23, 2003, 04:02 AM: Message edited by: Shaka of Carthage ]

[JerseyJohn]

Shaka

A really great thread.

Tons of material to consider on a difficult topic.

The concept definietly belongs in the next version; along with some revised tactical ideas so things will move more like it did in historical WW II.

[pzgndr]

Shaka, as usual, very impressive. I'm currently engrossed in my Gamer's Guide project and focused on "last year's" game. One of these days I'll shift back to SC2 ideas and provide some constructive comments. I'm just too frazzled right now to analyze your analyses.

[Shaka of Carthage]

That covers all of the nations.

I have the mod done, anyone interested in playing it?

I have some additional stuff, manpower related for future SC, that I will post on an additional topic.

[JerseyJohn]

Shaka

I can play via PBEM; IP requires too many consecutive hours for me to commit, I get sidetracked too often to do it properly.

[ March 23, 2003, 01:23 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Twiddle]

Shaka, I am back in town, willing to play your mod. let me know when, I will check back later and throughout the week.