Terence Posted January 26, 2001 Share Posted January 26, 2001 Hey, A couple years ago I did some reporting on a lawsuit by Jewish ex-concentration camp workers who had to toil in arms factories. Apparantly there were a lot of these including a lot of POWs. One of the guys I spoke to spent about a year making ammo shells for tanks and said that when he thought he could get away with it, he tried to spoil as much of the ammo as he could. He wasn't beaten to death or gassed or shot by the SS or the Krupp guards, so I guess he was pretty stealthy. I read similar stories from other survivors, but this sabotage stuff is in the realm of anecdotal evidence and I was wondering if any of the historically inclined folks on the board knew if this turned into a big quality control problem for the German forces? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest machineman Posted January 26, 2001 Share Posted January 26, 2001 I've heard of a couple stories like that, like a B-17 returning home after a direct hit with an antiaircraft shell and finding the hollow shell stuck in the fuselage with a note inside in Czech. In "Stuka Pilot" Rudel makes a big thing over several of his fellow fliers who he had served for years with on the eastern front going up in a big ball of flame just as they release their bombs. He blames it on sabotage of the bomb arming mechanism or some such and was very bitter about this. The best one was from a European museum who just recently restored their Me-163 "Komet", finding a jagged peice of scrap metal jammed between the pilots seat and the fuel tank, along with the words in French "I really do not like my work". The fuel tank if punctured in these rocket planes was known for 1)exploding violently 2) if not exploding, then DISSOLVING the pilot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terence Posted January 26, 2001 Author Share Posted January 26, 2001 Originally posted by machineman: In "Stuka Pilot" Rudel makes a big thing over several of his fellow fliers who he had served for years with on the eastern front going up in a big ball of flame just as they release their bombs. He blames it on sabotage of the bomb arming mechanism or some such and was very bitter about this. . I bet he was. That is fascinating stuff. Does anyone have any more? Or a suggestion where I could look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russellmz Posted January 26, 2001 Share Posted January 26, 2001 slave labor, u get what u pay for(or more than what u bargained for) ambrose's "citizen soldiers" has a paragraph saying how in interviews american soldiers mention german duds a lot(one had 8 in a 30m? radius around his hole). but his german interviwees didn't say anything about it. ------------------ russellmz, Self-Proclaimed Keeper for Life of the Sacred Unofficial FAQ. "They had their chance- they have not lead!" - GW Bush "They had mechanical pencils- they have not...lead?" - Jon Stewart on The Daily Show Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terence Posted January 26, 2001 Author Share Posted January 26, 2001 Originally posted by russellmz: slave labor, u get what u pay for(or more than what u bargained for) but his german interviwees didn't say anything about it. Maybe its harder to say, if you are the one firing the shell or throwing the grenade if it was a dud or just a miss, esp if you are shooting at airplanes ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted January 26, 2001 Share Posted January 26, 2001 I have read that in a book with stories about life and resistance in the Reich, but the book was a work from the GDR (communist Germany), so there is no way of telling whether it was propaganda. One example was messing up crystals in radios. The other was pouring lunch-break beer (very common in Germany) over freshly rolled, still cooling tank and arty gun barrels. This would mean they cool differently at the space the beer was poured, and basically wreck it. ------------------ Andreas Der Kessel Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisl Posted January 26, 2001 Share Posted January 26, 2001 Originally posted by Terence: I bet he was. That is fascinating stuff. Does anyone have any more? Or a suggestion where I could look. Schindler's list (read the book, didn't see the movie) pretty much documents that he systematically was just barely outside acceptable quality limits on manufacturing things. When I visited Buchenwald back when there were two Germanies (and had a guided tour) they described what the prisoners did-- they managed to pilfer enough parts from the lines to assemble two or so fully functional machineguns (probably MG42 from the pictures), a good number of handgrenades, I think also some rifles. They also managed to build a radio, and when they heard that the allies were within a day or two, they turned on the guards and took over the camp. If they could pilfer this much stuff, people in manufacturing lines could probably screw up the shells pretty easily-- it's not very obvious if a shell is 0.002" over the diameter limit, but it can really screw up its performance in the gun. ------------------ "If you can taste the difference between caviar on a cracker and ketchup on a Kit-Kat while blindfolded, you have not had enough aquavit to be ready for lutefisk." (stolen from some web page about lutefisk) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terence Posted January 26, 2001 Author Share Posted January 26, 2001 So, any more data (anecdotal or otherwise) from the front lines on the effectiveness of the sabotage? ps. I suspect that slave laborers did not get lunchtime beer. But the point about pouring liquid on cooling tank barrels is _very_ interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapdragon Posted January 26, 2001 Share Posted January 26, 2001 One of the most famous, and one that effects people today, is the subtle sabotage that occurred at the FN plant in Belgium. FN reasoned that messing with the bigger guns they made would only attract quick notice, and what they wanted to do was screw the Germans in a way so subtle that they could do it for as long as occupation occurred. It also had to be invisible to the Germans watching the plant. The weapon they choose to screw with was the FN 1935 pistol. One of the most reliable pistols in the world, with the fewest moving parts, it costs half of the P-38 to make, had a 13 round magazine, and was more accurate because it dumped the barrel bushing of the M1911. FN arranged to have barrels that had hollows forged into them, scored hammers so that they would on blow back snap off (if used enough times) and send the hammer back into the users face, they messed with the firing pin return spring so that it would force the pin forward resulting in firing the gun before it had locked, and they screwed with the magazine disconnect and hammer safeties. Then they tested the pistols with lower power "police ammo" rather than the hotter SMG ammo that the Germans used for pistols in the field, and which the weapon would be fed with in service. So, the weapon goes into service and starts killing officers and NCOs who carry it. Sometimes it merely maims them. The Germans all along thought it was because the pistol was an inferior gun designed by an American and made by incompetent Belgiums (who just happen to be, next to the Chechs, some of the best gun makers in the world). 20-30 years ago a whole bunch of these pistols were important into the US with German receiving marks and sold to US audiences as "authentic German military pistols" and they continrued to blow up and wound people to this year. I used to own 3 FN 1935 pistols, a modern one, a Canadian Ingles from 1943 (a real shooter -- used hard and put up late), and a German marked 1942 FN make one. Out of curiosity, I took the FN wartime with German acceptance marks on it in and sure enough, the barrel had forging problems clearly visible, and the hammer group was not forged correctly at all (thank god I did not own it to shoot it). The weapon was more dangerous to the shooter than to the person being shot with really hot ammo. On the bright side a collector bought it from me exactly because it was an example of sabotage in the FN plants during the Nazi occupation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russellmz Posted January 26, 2001 Share Posted January 26, 2001 Originally posted by Terence: Maybe its harder to say, if you are the one firing the shell or throwing the grenade if it was a dud or just a miss, esp if you are shooting at airplanes ... sorry, i meant that the german guys didn't mention american duds. ------------------ russellmz, Self-Proclaimed Keeper for Life of the Sacred Unofficial FAQ. "They had their chance- they have not lead!" - GW Bush "They had mechanical pencils- they have not...lead?" - Jon Stewart on The Daily Show Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terence Posted January 26, 2001 Author Share Posted January 26, 2001 Originally posted by russellmz: sorry, i meant that the german guys didn't mention american duds. At the risk of being labeled an arrogant, jingoistic yank, perhaps there were fewer duds since the US didn't rely on slave labor. Workers in US armaments factories, in most cases, made more money at their new jobs than they did before. The upheaval that this caused in society when the women and African Americans (just for example) didn't want to return to their pre-war roles is still being felt. A great many of the women too, had boyfriends or husbands were going to be actually using the stuff they were making. Thats one incentive for quality control... [This message has been edited by Terence (edited 01-26-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapdragon Posted January 26, 2001 Share Posted January 26, 2001 Originally posted by Terence: At the risk of being labeled an arrogant, jingoistic yank, perhaps there were fewer duds since the US didn't rely on slave labor. Workers in US armaments factories, in most cases, made more money at their new jobs than they did before. The upheaval that this caused in society when the women and African Americans (just for example) didn't want to return to their pre-war roles is still being felt. A great many of the women too, had boyfriends or husbands were going to be actually using the stuff they were making. Thats one incentive for quality control... [This message has been edited by Terence (edited 01-26-2001).] You are an arrogant, jingoistic yank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgdpzr Posted January 26, 2001 Share Posted January 26, 2001 Just the other night I saw Hogan and his gang infiltrate a tank gun plant and they did some fine work! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terence Posted January 26, 2001 Author Share Posted January 26, 2001 Originally posted by Slapdragon: You are an arrogant, jingoistic yank. Well, that was to be expected. It was an act of purest optimism to think that noone would rise to bait so tantalizing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Hofbauer Posted January 26, 2001 Share Posted January 26, 2001 An american friend sent me the partial war diary (german) of elements of the 2nd Panzer Division, namely it's 38th Anti-Tank Detachment. There are endless reports towrds the rear of the book, namely late 44 and early 45, where scores of their few active JgdPz IV had their 7.5cm L/48 barrels blown by using (unknowingly, of course) sabotaged ammunition. During the time where they had that sabotaged ammuntion, the reader realizes that the least reason for tank losses was Sherman-induced damage...rather unfortunate twist of fate when you are in a shootout with enemy tanks and instead of nailing that M4 with your gun your next shot blows YOU....Terence, if it is very important for you, I might try to dig it up again and give you any details the book provides.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russellmz Posted January 26, 2001 Share Posted January 26, 2001 i am proud to be a jingostic yank. but one area where workers weren't up to snuff was parachutes: they found 1 in 10 didn't open properly. solution: parachute packers were taken up in the air and made to jump using their handiwork. no more problems after that. ------------------ russellmz, Self-Proclaimed Keeper for Life of the Sacred Unofficial FAQ. "They had their chance- they have not lead!" - GW Bush "They had mechanical pencils- they have not...lead?" - Jon Stewart on The Daily Show Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terence Posted January 26, 2001 Author Share Posted January 26, 2001 Originally posted by M Hofbauer: Terence, if it is very important for you, I might try to dig it up again and give you any details the book provides.... If you have time, I'd love to hear it. Since you say that possibly in this case at least, sabotage was more significant than enemy action, there begins to grow in my mind the merest trembling hint of a shadow of a question that someone might think to suggest that this could perhaps one day find itself on a list of real world phenomena set for consideration for modeling in the game. Or maybe not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigmac@work Posted January 26, 2001 Share Posted January 26, 2001 Originally posted by Terence: At the risk of being labeled an arrogant, jingoistic yank, perhaps there were fewer duds since the US didn't rely on slave labor. Workers in US armaments factories, in most cases, made more money at their new jobs than they did before. The upheaval that this caused in society when the women and African Americans (just for example) didn't want to return to their pre-war roles is still being felt. A great many of the women too, had boyfriends or husbands were going to be actually using the stuff they were making. Thats one incentive for quality control... [This message has been edited by Terence (edited 01-26-2001).] I can't speak against this statement in the given context, but I DO know that our (American) Torpedo design prior to 1943 was responsible for a higher dud than live ratio. They were horrible, and we weren't using forced labor to the best of my knowledge... Just a little aside... Thanks Terence, this is an interesting post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terence Posted January 26, 2001 Author Share Posted January 26, 2001 Originally posted by bigmac@work: I can't speak against this statement in the given context, but I DO know that our (American) Torpedo design prior to 1943 was responsible for a higher dud than live ratio. . Its interesting that you bring it up. When I was about 11 years old, my absolute favorite book In The World, was the Time Life War Series volume on the US submarine fleet in the Pacific. War Under the Pacific, it was called, I think. As I recall from reading that book, the torpedoes we had at the start of the war were made correctly, but the design itself was flawed. The torpedoes ran at the wrong depth, didn't explode, made irritating squeaking noises etc. So yes, the United States was by no means immune to crappy design. But in this case, as I recall, the torpedoes were not otherwise fine weapons that failed because they were tampered with by unhappy workers. They failed because they were badly designed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterNZer Posted January 26, 2001 Share Posted January 26, 2001 I'm reading "Guns of Normandy" about a Canadian arty reg. in ww2. At one point the author describes being shelled for an hour or so and they found many shells were complete duds. including ones landing in gun pits and near folks etc etc. There were more duds than could be accounted for in normal manufacturing so they were quietly thankful for the efforts of the slave labourers. Also, some stuka, I read somewhere, was bombing a Brit held town in North Africa, and after it's dive and release of the bomb which came screaming down on an AA gun, there was a mighty clang and it stuck itself in the frame work. Inside, instead of a fuse was a note saying "Sorry tommy, it's all we can do for now" or something. PeterNZ ------------------ "Patriotism is the virtue of the viscious" - Oscar Wilde "Don't F*CK with Johnny Cash!" - Chupacabra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smaragdadler Posted January 26, 2001 Share Posted January 26, 2001 Originally posted by chrisl: When I visited Buchenwald back when there were two Germanies (and had a guided tour) they described what the prisoners did-- they managed to pilfer enough parts from the lines to assemble two or so fully functional machineguns (probably MG42 from the pictures), a good number of handgrenades, I think also some rifles. They also managed to build a radio, and when they heard that the allies were within a day or two, they turned on the guards and took over the camp. If they could pilfer this much stuff, people in manufacturing lines could probably screw up the shells pretty easily-- it's not very obvious if a shell is 0.002" over the diameter limit, but it can really screw up its performance in the gun. Here some interesting pages with detailed informations: http://www.koch-athene.de/6th/weimar-buchenwald/bu-hot1.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirOscar Posted January 26, 2001 Share Posted January 26, 2001 Originally posted by machineman: In "Stuka Pilot" Rudel makes a big thing over several of his fellow fliers who he had served for years with on the eastern front going up in a big ball of flame just as they release their bombs. He blames it on sabotage of the bomb arming mechanism or some such and was very bitter about this. I am sorry but I just have to say something about this. He is bitter about his 2 friends??????? I am going to start crying, poor poor man, lost 2 friends because a few out of the 6 million plus tortured, murdered people actually found a small way to fight back. Ahhhhhhhhh so sad!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terence Posted January 26, 2001 Author Share Posted January 26, 2001 Originally posted by SirOscar: I have to say, I don't think that this is what Machineman was getting at. I'm sure Machineman meant that this pilot was pissed cause his friends' planes blew up, and that his post didn't intend to imply a comparison with the sufferings of the laborers. BUT, I agree with your sentiments. Its hard to muster much sympathy for Herr Rudel. [This message has been edited by Terence (edited 01-26-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirOscar Posted January 27, 2001 Share Posted January 27, 2001 Terence and Machineman I am REALLY sorry if anyone thought I was blasting Machineman. Please belive me it was Herr Rudel I was blasting. I normally try and stay out of "political" discussions about WW2 because I belive there are always 2 sides to every fight, but for some reason it angered me a lot. I saw two pictures in my mind, starved slave laborers and Rudel and friends dropping bombs on Russian refuges. Then poor ole Rudel complaining about his poor friends, sorry just really really struck a raw nerve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terence Posted January 27, 2001 Author Share Posted January 27, 2001 Originally posted by SirOscar: I am REALLY sorry if anyone thought I was blasting Machineman. Please belive me it was Herr Rudel I was blasting. I'd like to blast Rudel myself. As I said, he doesn't inspire a lot of sympathy in me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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