"Hunt" = Sunday stroll till ya die!

[Guest tero]

>The idea that a zook could get off 3 shots before the Puma got turned to engage seems unlikely but not really that hard to beleive.

Bad things happen when "flanking" AFVs run into enemy AT infantry at 30 yards. Shrug.

Back in the days of Demo Gold I took out a Sherman in a PBEM with a Pzschreck with the 4th shot from the front when the Sherman was busy shooting at manually set area target set at the AT teams last know position some 30 meters to the left from its current location. The Sherman spotted the team after the first shot but insisted on firing at the area target until it was killed.

[JoePrivate]

Originally posted by Leonidas:

OGSF,

IIRC, a change in the latest patch was that any AFV that saw armor would stay in 'armor only' mode for the next three minutes or so, and refuse to engage infantry. This was part of how they fixed the earlier problem of tanks obsessing over fleeing crews and getting their turrets out of position for the next enemy AFV.

I think you are confusing things here, there was a tweak in 1.05 where an AFV's turret would stay pointed in the direction of the last known anti-armour threat, the turret would rotate forward again after 2-3 minutes or when the AFV started moving. I can't recall any thread which said an AFV would remain in "'armor only' mode for the next three minutes or so, and refuse to engage infantry" or seen that behaviour in play. If you have the url please post it.

Regards the original question about the PSW, this is from the 1.1 readme:

* Vehicles, especially those with only a few crewmen, have greater difficulty spotting enemies when moving. The difficulty is proportional to speed and ruggedness of terrain.

On top of that, it has been said before(1.01 Readme) that buttoned AFVs have an additional delay before targetting so what happened to the PSW isn't so suprising.

[Guest Madmatt]

Originally posted by Jeff Heidman:

While I do not think this is an example of a TacAI problem for the reasons I stated, your last comment is factually incorrect.

For better or worse, CM models every single unit as having telepathic communications with every other unit. So inability to communicate, while realistic, cannot be used as an explanation for the issue described.

Jeff Heidman

While once a friendly unit detects an enemy all units do become "aware" of the target, BUT they do not all REACT immediately to it. The game has built in delays so that tanks and other units do not go into supersoldier Terminator mode and be able to always instantly target a unit that someone else saw.

In the example with the Churchills and Tiger, it wasn't until the player saw the red line that the Tiger actually detected (reacted too) the Churchills. That is why he didnt stop when the first Churchill popped up.

The Turret tweak spoken of only keeps the alignment of the turret facing the last engaged enemy AFV for about 1-2 minutes (its a random delay I believe) or until the vehicle begins to move again. It will still engage any new target it see's regardless of type. There is no Armor Only mode as such.

Madmatt

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by Jeff Heidman:

While I do not think this is an example of a TacAI problem for the reasons I stated, your last comment is factually incorrect.

For better or worse, CM models every single unit as having telepathic communications with every other unit. So inability to communicate, while realistic, cannot be used as an explanation for the issue described.

Jeff Heidman

YES But....

as has been posted

"

Regards the original question about the PSW, this is from the 1.1 readme:

* Vehicles, especially those with only a few crewmen, have greater difficulty spotting enemies when moving. The difficulty is proportional to speed and ruggedness of terrain."

yes the "magical radio" of absolute spotting and telepathic communication amongst units is an issue

BUT

BTS has tried to "kludge" (Kloodge) their way around this by coding in a pause or delay period, for buttoned vehicle's that are moving so while they can "pretend" not to see what we might expect them to "know" about via telepathy (absolute spotting).

I think this is a VERY creative work around.

It would seem the "instant" telepathy of absolute spotting is not as instant or absolute as we might think.

I think that the PSW in the incident in question that got ko'd reacted realistically and just simply did not see the AT team because it was modeling a real life behaviour of moving while buttoned and and the delay in the spotting agorythm told the PSW to "pretend" you don't see that AT team and "carry on".

I don't think this a problem actually.

-tom w

[This message has been edited by aka_tom_w (edited 02-06-2001).]

[Jeff Heidman]

Madmatt and Tom --

Understood. I was only referencing the idea that the TC did not "spot" the zook team. That (due to absolute spotting) is incorrect.

I think I mentioned earlier in a post that it takes time to engage a unit after it is spotted, which (I think) is what you guys are talking about.

Jeff Heidman

[Guest Michael emrys]

Originally posted by Kingfish:

I can easily see several variations of this argument, depending on the outcomes. Here's a few off the top of my head:

1) AFV encounters crew, stops to engage, zook pops AFV. Complaint: "Why didn't my AFV ignore the crew, it was no threat, this must be a bug"

2) AFV encounters crew, ignores and continues on, encounters zook, turns to engage. Crew turns up to be a .50 MG team, which pops the AFV from behind. Complaint: "Why did my AFV ignore the crew, it could have been a threat, this must be a bug"

3) AFV encounters crew, turns to engage, zook fires on distracted AFV, misses, AFV turns to engage higher threat zook, enemy tank rolls in and pops AFV. Complaint: "why don't hunting AFV ignore infantry units and concentrate on enemy armor, this must be a bug"

The list can go on and on...

[heavy sarcasm]

Wait....You aren't saying...you're not implying...OGSF is...is...a...whiner???

[slaps forehead]

Oh. My. God!

[/heavy sarcasm]

Michael

[This message has been edited by Michael emrys (edited 02-05-2001).]

[Guest Michael emrys]

Originally posted by Jeff Heidman:

Madmatt and Tom --

Understood. I was only referencing the idea that the TC did not "spot" the zook team. That (due to absolute spotting) is incorrect.

I think I mentioned earlier in a post that it takes time to engage a unit after it is spotted, which (I think) is what you guys are talking about.

We seem to have gotten into a bit of linguistic doo-doo here. ISTR BTS making an official statement at one time to the effect that just because one unit had "spotted" an enemy unit, it didn't mean that any other friendly had "spotted" it.

That was followed by the whole "absolute spotting" mish-mash that stated that once an enemy had been "spotted" that all friendlies were now "aware" of it even if they hadn't "spotted" it.

So then, to take the present case, OGSF's AC was "aware" of the two unfriendlies even though it hadn't "spotted" it. (This presupposes that there were no other friendlies to "spot" the unfriendlies. Otherwise it is Alice-in-Wonderland time.)

Michael

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by Michael emrys:

That was followed by the whole "absolute spotting" mish-mash that stated that once an enemy had been "spotted" that all friendlies were now "aware" of it even if they hadn't "spotted" it.

So then, to take the present case, OGSF's AC was "aware" of the two unfriendlies even though it hadn't "spotted" it. (This presupposes that there were no other friendlies to "spot" the unfriendlies. Otherwise it is Alice-in-Wonderland time.)

Michael

re:

"Otherwise it is Alice-in-Wonderland time."

AKA (also known as) Fog of War!

-tom w

[OGSF]

I'm surprised this thread has lived so long.

Okay, to clarify a couple of points which might help focus the discussion:

1. I am not complaining about the PSW getting whacked by the zook. It was a calculated risk running it into the rear of the attacking enemy. I might have clobbered an FO, as it was I got clobbered. Not the point here.

2. There were no other units of mine with LOS to the zook team. The first "crew?" and then the zook guys were American star icons, and then they turned into little men when the PSW approached them. I took this to indicate that the PSW was not only aware of them, but was the one that spotted them. So relative spotting is not a relevant issue here.

The point is simply this. My PSW was in hunt mode, saw the enemy, and didn't shoot at them. So if I exploit a break in the enemy's line and drive my armour through the gap to create hovoc in the enemimy's rear, what command should I use? "Hunt" is obviously not the one. So what is?

See? No whining about the PSW getting clobbered. No issue of relative spotting. No enemy armor encountered. Just troops. The PSW saw enemy troops and did not fire on them, even though in hunt mode. It did not see the zook, and the zook did not fire, until after the PSW has rolled past the "crew?" that was firing a pistol at it. This did not happen over a five yard advance, the PSW rolled along it's assigned path with all the care of a teenager on their driving test.

I don't even care that the PSW fired it's guns and lived. A short burst of machine gun fire before it died would have been okay. I am just trying to understand how the hunt command is supposed to work, cos it appears to be different to what I had been thinking it was.

OGSF

[Porajkl]

Originally posted by Madmatt:

While once a friendly unit detects an enemy all units do become "aware" of the target, BUT they do not all REACT immediately to it. The game has built in delays so that tanks and other units do not go into supersoldier Terminator mode and be able to always instantly target a unit that someone else saw.

In the example with the Churchills and Tiger, it wasn't until the player saw the red line that the Tiger actually detected (reacted too) the Churchills. That is why he didnt stop when the first Churchill popped up.

Okay, I understand that. But have in mind this: Tiger was unbuttoned,crack crew, going straight for the Churchill (both hull and turret were oriented at its position) but the buttoned Churchill spotted my Tiger first. Going realistically, Tiger's TC, with its eyes almost ene meter above tank turret should view a lot more than buttoned Churchill. I forgot to tell, Tiger was coming from behind the hill. He *could* see (if we count in the slow speed of Tiger in hunt mode) the Churchill before even making on top of the hill. That was standard procedure in WW2 - going almost to the top of the hill and then TC checked (from his high position on turret) surrounding area.

If it was the case that my crew spotted Churchills somehow late, why did the Churchills spot me instantly? And why didn't Tiger put in reverse and got out of gunning sights of Churchills, positioning himself hull down? After all, from crack units you can't expect to behave like "I'm in Tiger, nobody can even scratch me and my gun is sooo powerfull I can destroy 8 tanks with one shot".

And something else - if enemy units are spotted from my unit, will I automatically get delayed spotting from all other my units? If so, then (in my case) it would be better to kill all my troops who saw churchills and only then I should advance with Tiger to kill Churchills. ??? I would probably have better chance in killing them... Looks like tank reacts better if nobody (except from himself) spots his target - I can asume that from Churchills' behaviour.

From my case I can only conclude that no matter the crew quality, no matter buttoned or unbuttoned, no matter that you show up from wooded hill, the computer player spots (and reacts) first. I'll never buy crack unit, since two regulars can do much more. Of course, I still don't understand how "hunt" works. Three days ago I thought I did.

And thanx for explaining