ASL is still breathing. thank G^d

[tanq_tonic]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Okay, let's tackle the high ground then . <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

gulp.... lol

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>How is it that Multiman publishing has copyrights on scenarios created by various individuals and published by various different companies?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You would have to trace who has the rights. One would have to know the particulars of the assignments, agreements, licenses, and relationships between the parties.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I mean, if Michael Klautky creates an ASL scenario "Double or Nothing" and it is published by Critical Hit, how does Multiman even get into the equation? They didn't create the scenario, and they didn't publish it - they only provided the game platform. Who has the intellectual rights to this scenario?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The copyrights are a bundle of rights. Without getting bogged down, you would have to particularly identify the right and the object in question. In this case, assuming that no existing relationship between the three parties, by default, the original author has at least some rights. In this case at least some of the various rights in issue are:

printing rights -- probably belong to Critical Hit

possibly some "scenario" rights -- Klautky

derivative works rights -- MM

rights in the map used (assuming it being produced or published by MM) -- MM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>For a CM bent - Dan (Kwazydog) made a scenario that is included on the CM disk called "All or Nothing". What if I wanted to convert his scenario "All or Nothing" into an ASL scenario? Who would have the intellectual rights to that scenario - Dan or BTS? If Dan says - sure, go ahead and convert it - can BTS say no?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

again, there are a number of rights in issue. Case 1, I'll assume that there is no assignement between BTS and the author, Case 2 I'll assume that the scenario is a "work made for hire"

Case 1

scenario rights -- ie original map, OOB

probably Mr. Kwazydog

however, the copyright notice for the game disk is in the name of CM. Thus, there is a presumptive aspect that an assignment of some sort has been made, or that a copyright in an anthology is claimed extra from the copyright in the single work. Thus you waould want to contact both to find out where the real rights lie.

Case 2

In a work made for hire, the rights all reside with the person commissioning the work.

As you can probably surmise, the various rights, along with the contractual relationships of the various parties, can get real sticky and real involved real quick.

Nice incisive question ASLVet. I usually charge for this advice, and, before we get bogged down in a stream of what-if's, please dont be offended if I don't answer further involved questions. I try to divorce my 9 to 5 from my real life as much as possible. When dealing with 40,000 foot views, I have no problem answering more of them. However, dealing at a treetop flying level, I try not to get involved when Im not on the clock.

That said, due to the nature of the answer I gave above, I really must say

"The foregoing is not meant to be legal advice, just an explanation of what COULD happen in a hypothetical situation. As such, one should not rely on the advice given above in any or all instances, and one should always consult an attorney for advice in particular circumstances."

[ASL Veteran]

No problem, you have been quite informative and have added a great deal to the discussion . Thank you.

At any rate (not fee rate of course), it would seem to be the case where there is no clear cut right or wrong without a great deal of research about the various agreements between the parties - and since it seems remote that someone is going to hunt me down and send me a court order in the first place, then I will continue to convert to my hearts content . Give me converted ASL scenarios or give me ... well you get the idea .

By the way, I think you may get a lurker award being only a Junior Member with a moderately low member number.

[tanq_tonic]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ASL Veteran:

By the way, I think you may get a lurker award being only a Junior Member with a moderately low member number.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Or Im a wierd attorney who doesnt like to talk for the sheer sake of talking......

[Derfel]

uh... since it appears there are two parallel threads on this issue I will just pop in here to state that for those interested in the reasons for the departure of Col. Klotz from the CMBO scene I've posted a reply on this matter in the other thread.

Also I would to thank tanq_tonic (say that three times with an ice-cube in your mouth for a dispassionate and clear description of the rules of "Intellectual Property". Moronic as they can seem at times it's nice to have a pro to guide you...

Personally I would agree with those that say that while Hasbro et al probably has the right to act against ASL2CM conversions it would be stupid to do so, the gains would (as has been pointed out above) hardly be worth the effort. The argument that they would lose their rights if they don't protect them is rather beside the point, the entire idea is to persuade Hasbro to give up some of their rights in return for a better relation with the small Wargaming community that is in reality the only potential customers of a product such as ASL.

I'm sure that if Hasbro (or MMP or whoever) wanted to they could set up provisos (correct term?) for conversions to other gaming systems or home made ASL scenarios that would limit the "damage" to their rights even while allowing gamers to go all out and create all the scenarios they want to (as long as no money changes hands of course).

I'm sure this could be done under Swedish law, but I'll leave to tanq_tonic

to comment on the feasability of this in the U.S.

Finally, I have a seaking suspicion that if you were to look into the overall situation of the rights of the varios aspects of ASL you would find them a total mess. At least it's my experience that when a small group of creative people (like the original ASL designers) get together and produce something they rarely stop to consider the legal side of things, few contracts and even fewer detailed agreements get signed. Thus the question of who really owns the rights to the final product might be a very open question... which would explain Hasbro's hair-trigger reaction to the ASL2CM thing, they really don't want to open that particualar can of worms... (all this is of course pure speculation, for all I know the entire ASL design team might have been Lawyers...)

-Derfel

[ 08-19-2001: Message edited by: Derfel ]

[patboivin]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MrSpkr:

The problem is that often, in SL, the victory conditions are not replicable in CM.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree, it was easier for the ASL designers to make up "special" victory rules for scenarios. It's easier to be flexible when you can just make up new rules. For CM, they have to code everything, and they can't think of all the possible victory conditions up front, before the game has shipped.

[patboivin]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Harold:

Does anyone know why Col. Klotz shut down his ASL website? Some said he got too busy with school/work. Others said the copyright issue w/ Hasbro popped up.

Harold<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Harold,

This was a long while ago and there was a crash of this BTS BBS since so the original messages were lost, but I remember two versions:

1. Col.Kotz at first said that he just didn't have the time to maintain the site anymore.

2. Someone claiming to know Col.Kotz directly reported that the Col. had received a notification from Hasbro telling him to shut down his site. There were even quotes from that letter in the post, if I remember correctly.

I think that the site taking up all his time, and the letter both contributed to his site being discontinued.

Col.Kotz did a great job with his site, I am an old SL/ASL player and relished those Squad Leader conversions. The Col. obviously put hours and hours into that project, and he did a fantastic job. I wish he could have continued with the project.

Problem is, sometimes life intrudes and we realize there is no time to do everything we want. That letter from Hasbro may have been the event that pushed him to decide to give up the web site, since it was taking so much of his time to maintain anyway.

I don't know Col.Kotz personally, nor do I know the second person who posted parts of the letter.

I am going by memory.

I also saw the "coming and going" of the Squad Leader computer game released by Hasbro. At first people were anxiously waiting for the game to be released, then it was released, and everyone had a good laugh because the game could not be classified as a historical simulation. It just wasn't Squad Leader anymore.

I personally think Hasbro made a mistake, because the audience they were targeting with their computer game wasn't the audience their game design would have pleased. They should have named the game something else. Conversely, the audience they were targeting probably has never heard of the terms "Squad Leader", probably have never seen a game with thousands of cardboard chits anywhere, or heard of SPI, or Avalon Hill. I don't know how Hasbro could get around that problem.