How is firing initiative calculated?

[Juardis]

I posted in another thread my theory on why the allied tanks always seem to fire first (assuming both sides see each other at the same time). Haven't gotten any responses in that thread so here it is in all its naked glory .

I hypothesized that who fires first depends on which tank has the highest rate of fire (assuming both tanks see each other at the same time). The fundamental assumption there is that all tanks move around without any shells in the breach. So is that true?

For example, say a M4A3 fires one shell/10 sec while a Pz IV fires one shell/15 sec. If both barrels are empty, the M4A3 would always fire first with the first shell leaving in approximately 10 sec.

Now, when I was playing M1 Tank Platoon 2, I always drove my Abrams around with a Sabot loaded and ready to loose. Infantry was a lower priority target IMO, so I was always prepared for a surprise armor engagement. Did not the tanks in WWII have the same thoughts? Always have your AP shells loaded just in case. You can always unload and fire HE if needed can't you? (there is a thought deep in the dark recesses of my mind that says once loaded, it must be fired for WWII era tanks, so I could be wrong here).

If this were SOP, then who fires first simply comes down to crew experience and who sees who first, like it should be IMO. But I'm not a tanker, I'm an engineer, so any enlightenment would be appreciated.

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Jeff Abbott

[This message has been edited by Juardis (edited 01-16-2001).]

[Maximus]

Which tank fires first depends soaly on Crew Experience and the ROF of the vehicle. Nothing else. I am pretty sure that CM doesn't model the time delay in "switching" between HE and AP, Smoke, Tungsten, etc. I could be wrong though, but I know there is not a "visual" indication of the loaders having to switch between ammo types.

Hetzers and Hummels have a very slow rate of fire, for example. PzIIL's (Lynx's) have a high rate of fire, but of course you're talking about a 20mm auto-cannon there.

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"Live by the sword, live a good LOOONG life!"-Minsc, BGII

"Boo points, I punch."--Minsc, BGII

[This message has been edited by Maximus (edited 01-17-2001).]

[Pak40]

Allied tanks had faster turrets. This subtracts from the time used to lay the gun on the target. This will give them and advantage, all other things being equal.

I always have assumed that CM did model AP/HE switching and AFVs in CM did ride around with a round in the breach.

I suggest you make your own map with nothing on it but a Sherman 75 and MkIV. Put them appoximately 100m apart, directly facing each other so that there is no turret turning. Make both crews equal in experience. Replay the scenario 10 or 20 times and let us know the results of who fired first.

[Dittohead]

Note the impotance of firing first.

WO 291/975 Tank battle analysis.

This report presents the results of an analysis of 83 tank vs. tank actions in NW Europe taken from unit war diaries. The data means that it is not possible to separate results out by individual tank or gun types. It is assumed that Allied (British) tanks have 25% 17-pr tanks, and that 25% of towed ATk guns are 6-pr, the rest 17-pr. German ATk

guns are assumed to be 50% 75mm and 50% 88mm.

The report's conclusions are: 1.SP guns are more effective that towed ATk guns by a factor of about 3 for the Allies, and about 2 for the Germans.

1.The Panther and Tiger are more effective than Mk III and IV against Allied SP guns by a factor of about 4.

1."In tank versus tank engagements, for the chance of success to be equal for either side, Allied tanks would have to outnumber the German tanks by some 30%".

1.For an equal chance of success against German anti-tank guns, Allied tanks need to outnumber them by about 2 to 1.

1.The mean "success range" for the 17-pr was 2100 yards, as against 580 yards for the 75mm.

1.The average "success ranges" for tanks were 750 yards for the Allies, 1290 yards for the Germans.

1.Allied ATk guns were successful at 1090 yards (SP) and 870 yards (towed), whereas German figures were 330 yards (SP) and 300 yards (towed).

1.Of 83 actions, 58 were won by the side that fired first. Where a side was both Numerically superior and fired first, it was invariably successful.

1.A successful tank attack typically resulted in about 15% losses; a failure, about 65%.

1.A successful ATk gun defence resulted in about 12.5% (SP) or 15% (towed) losses; a failure, over 50% (SP) or 80% (towed).

From http://www.britwar.co.uk/salts/salt5.htm

[Juardis]

Originally posted by Dittohead:

Note the impotance of firing first.

WO 291/975 Tank battle analysis.

thanks for the link

1.Allied ATk guns were successful at 1090 yards (SP) and 870 yards (towed), whereas German figures were 330 yards (SP) and 300 yards (towed).

wow, I didn't realize the German AT guns sucked compared to their allied counterparts

1.Of 83 actions, 58 were won by the side that fired first. Where a side was both Numerically superior and fired first, it was invariably successful.

That's what I'm after. How to get my German tanks to fire first. This data shows why. Crew quality is one factor. But if I'm also limited by the ROF for each tank, then I could purposely choose the tanks with the fastest ROF. I think that ROF + crew quality determines who fires first (assuming no turret swinging and that both sight each other at the same time). I want to know if there is some way to get an AP round loaded in the breach (like perhaps targetting a tank while it is out of LOS so as to inform your tank crew that you want AP loaded). Maybe by area firing you're preloading HE into the breach? I don't know, I need some kind of edge. Maybe all the edge the axis can get is to bump up the crew quality to overcome the slower ROF?

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Jeff Abbott

[Juardis]

Does a lack of response mean no one knows how to best ensure your German tank fires first or that nothing you can do will speed up your first shot? Or does no one know?

[JoePrivate]

Interesting question, I don't think there is a way to guarantee the first shot in a straight up match unless you try to control all the variables such as spotting, time to target(turret speed), ROF, crew experience etc. to your favour, those are the ones I'm aware of. From what I have seen there is no delay when switching from HE to AP. If you're looking for an edge, and who isn't , you could try something simple like waving your left hand then hitting him with your right, I have had some success with that method

[Guest Michael emrys]

Who shoots first in a tank vs. tank matchup depends on a number of variables, some of which have already been mentioned. Your assumption that the two tanks spot each other simultaneously is very much open to question. Generally speaking, a tank sitting unbuttoned, motionless with the engine idling, behind some degree of concealment, will spot a tank in motion in the open that is buttoned up rather more often than the converse. But that is to deal in best and worst cases. Just keep in mind that many things influence speed of spotting and identification, including visibility from inside the tank, crew experience, how tired or alert they are, etc.

Assuming simultaneous spotting (unlikely, but possible), then who shoots first depends on who is fastest at getting the crosshairs on the target. This depends on turret rotation speed and how far the turret has to move to bring the target within the field of view of the gunsight. It may also depend on how much difficulty the gunner has making out the target when it is in his sight. A small target, behind some vegetation, in conditions of poor light is going to be harder to draw a bead on than a big one sitting out in the open in bright sunlight.

Who shoots first has almost nothing to do with rate of fire, as that is mostly dependent on rate of loading, and you may assume that both tanks are traveling with one up the spout if there is any known enemy within five miles. That round is however most likely to be HE unless it is specifically known that enemy tanks are in the area. In the event that a tank is unexpectedly come upon, the HE will be unloaded by firing at the enemy tank. It's done that way because: 1 It's the fastest way to clear the tube; 2 It just might do some useful damage; 3 In any case, it will ring the enemy crew's bell and just might buy you a few seconds while you reload.

I'm not sure how accurately CM models all those factors, but to the best of my knowledge, that's more or less how it was during the period in question.

Michael

[Jeff Duquette]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Mike Said:

That round is however most likely to be HE unless it is specifically known that enemy tanks are in the area. In the event that a tank is unexpectedly come upon, the HE will be unloaded by firing at the enemy tank. It's done that way because: 1 It's the fastest way to clear the tube; 2 It just might do some useful damage; 3 In any case, it will ring the enemy crew's bell and just might buy you a few seconds while you reload.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nice read Mike. Just one more added bonus with the HE round up the spout. Firing the HE round will help in assessing your initial range estimation and increase hit probability on subsequent AP round. Easier to sense the splash of an HE round exploding than a solid shot round plunking into the ground.

One disadvantage for the gunner is that he will be looking at a different set of stadia lines for AP and HE due to different round trajectories. Not a real big deal, but it introduces potential for error on the part of the gunner if he is not thinking clearly. In an MBT with a ballistic computer there is always the potential for the bonehead mistake of leaving the computer setting at HE after the loader has a SABOT round up.

[Guest Michael emrys]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jeff Duquette:

Nice read Mike. Just one more added bonus with the HE round up the spout. Firing the HE round will help in assessing your initial range estimation and increase hit probability on subsequent AP round. Easier to sense the splash of an HE round exploding than a solid shot round plunking into the ground.

One disadvantage for the gunner is that he will be looking at a different set of stadia lines for AP and HE due to different round trajectories. Not a real big deal, but it introduces potential for error on the part of the gunner if he is not thinking clearly. In an MBT with a ballistic computer there is always the potential for the bonehead mistake of leaving the computer setting at HE after the loader has a SABOT round up.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

All true. As we know by now, **** happens.

Michael