Wespe top hit tanks in thick fog question

[Henri]

In a TCPIP game over the weekend, I had the following strange thing happen: my 2-inch mortar got a top hit on a Wespe, but the game indicated. The label hit said "Top hit, no damage", and my opponent said that there was some flaking.Now I had been targeting this vehicle with my 3 two-inch mortars hopint that hitting the vehicle would destroy it for sure, which caused me to lose the game.

Now since the Wespe is an open-topped vehicle that HAS no top, it seems to me that a top hit on a Wespe should fall right inside the Wespe, getting the windshield all dirty with guts and stuff..

I suspect that the "top hit" algorithm doesn't model whether or not tanks are open-topped, is this correct?

In another TCPIP game, five times out of six incidents, in a scenario with heavy fog, when my unbuttoned German tanks met oncoming US tanks from the frontal arc, the US tank fired first and killed my tanks (independently of whether I or the opponent or both was hunting). In one of the cases, an enemy STUART killed a STGIII a Hetzer, passing straight in front of the Hetzer at 20 m and then killing it from the side.In the only case did any one of my tanks fire: I had two STUG's meeting an oncoming Sherman, and although one of my STG's killed the Sherman, he simultaneously fired and killed one of my tanks.

So out of the 6 incidents, five times the US tanks fired first without getting any return fire, and in the other case fired at the same time.

Now there is a 1 in 64 chance of a 1/2 probability incident happening 6 times in a row, but still I am wondering: am I just unlucky or do US tanks have in advantage in heavy fog?

Henri

[M Hofbauer]

hmmm...strange indeed but....think of this....how would you label it if the mortar round hit the wespe on the protruding left front edge mudguard and went off?

you'ld call it a top hit.

what do you think the effects would be?

none.

CM *does* very well take into account whether or not a vehicle has an open top, and if not it takes into account the top armor thickness.

for your exceptional occurrence, just think of some strange way for the mortar round to strike and explode. Like, hiting the thin upper edge of the front armor superstructure, and not hiting any of the hunkered-down crew due to strange fragmentation pattern etc.

hey, things like that happen. In wartime accounts soldiers have been standing right next to impacting mortar rounds or grenades without being fragged.

IMO, in CM mortars are modeled too effective vs. armor anyhow. Your experience surely was irregular.

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"Im off to NZ police collage" (GAZ_NZ)

[mensch]

I don't know I kinda liked that.. it made me happy and gave me the win in the tcp/ip game

serriously though.. top hit includes the whole vehicle so maybe the round hit the front part of the Wespe? I got a message "Top Hit minor damage internal flaking".

now as far as your Vet PIAT team 20m behind, shooting at the Wespe and missing 7 times, sorry I can't help you there.

[This message has been edited by mensch (edited 01-15-2001).]

[DraGoon]

Well, as Blackadder would say, it sounds like you were:

Unlucky Henri, the unlucky bloke from UnLuchie, with less luck than an unlucky thing.

GD&R

DG

[Juardis]

As far as allied tanks firing first, I have experienced the same thing. Unfortunately for me, it is rare for my allied tanks to get in a first shot kill, so they end up dying. However, when being fired upon by allied tanks I invariably die from first shot kills. Go figure.

Anyway, I believe the calculation for who fires first is based on the rof. So if a Sherman can fire 6 shells in 60 secs, that's one shell every 10 sec. If a Pz IV can fire 4 shells in 60 secs, that is 1 in 15. So it takes 10 sec from sighting to firing for a Sherman vs. 15 sec from sighting to firing for a Pz IV. The Sherman gets first shot. I believe this is what is done since the game probably models no shells in the breach. If your Sherman carries AP, HE, and T, it would move around without any shells in the breach. Hence, the tank crew would have to load the appropriate shell before firing and thus the delay.

IMO, if you only have one type of shell left (or one type of shell period like the AVRE), the game should note that and always ride around with that shell loaded in the breach. Once the enemy is sighted, there is a small delay to swing the gun on target then fire away without waiting for the shell to be loaded.

When I played M1TP2, I always had a Sabot loaded in the breach for this very reason. Tanks are much more of a worry than infantry, so always be prepared to fire your AP shells first.

Question. Once a shell was loaded in WWII era tanks, did that shell have to be fired or could it be unloaded?

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Jeff Abbott

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Henri:

Now I had been targeting this vehicle with my 3 two-inch mortars hopint that hitting the vehicle would destroy it for sure, which caused me to lose the game.

Now since the Wespe is an open-topped vehicle that HAS no top, it seems to me that a top hit on a Wespe should fall right inside the Wespe, getting the windshield all dirty with guts and stuff..<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As others rightly pointed out, the Wespe has a hood reaching about the front 3rd of the vehicle. This may or may not have been armoured. For me to add - 2" mortars were apparently crap. Alex Bowlby states that they prefered to use their PIAT as a mortar because it had a better performance than the 2" mortar. They are at best good for laying smoke or putting down suppressive fire. If you want to kill things, you need a 3" mortar, which would almost certainly have done away with Grego's Wespe.

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Andreas

Der Kessel

Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission.

[Henri]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mensch:

now as far as your Vet PIAT team 20m behind, shooting at the Wespe and missing 7 times, sorry I can't help you there.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not to mention the cross-eyed squad of rejects from peewee baseball who stood next to the Wespe for a full minute lobbing grenades at it without effect

I bet things like that never happened to Patton and Rommel...

Henri

[Holman]

Henri,

As the owner of the Stuart in your anecdote, I have to say that I was as surprised at the result as you were. From watching the film several times over, it seems to me that my Stuart was just fast enough to to stay on the edge of your Hetzer's firing arc while climbing the hill (a FAST command). Once my tank was abreast of the Hetzer at 9 meters, putting even a 37mm AP round though the side armor was fairly easy.

I'm really enjoying our match in the fog, by the way! But perhaps that's only because luck does seem to be running my way when our tanks stumble over each other...

Martyr

[mensch]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Henri:

Not to mention the cross-eyed squad of rejects from peewee baseball who stood next to the Wespe for a full minute lobbing grenades at it without effect

I bet things like that never happened to Patton and Rommel...

Henri<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

you must have got the men from Liverpool... LOL

[Henri]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mensch:

you must have got the men from Liverpool... LOL<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

After investigation, it turns out that my men were from Hollywood; the tank crews were the Keystone Cops, the grenade-throwing squad were the Three Stooges and the Marx Brothers, and the Bazooka crew were laurel and Hardy, who couldn't figure out which end of the bazooka was the business end...

Henri