Uniform mod authors UNITE! (CMMOS discussion is here)

[Gordon]

Since this will quickly degenerate into nitty-gritty mods specifics, at bfamily33's suggestion, I think it's probably a good idea to split this dicussion off from the original "Mod reuse etiquette" thread.

So, first, let me plead ignorance of the state of most of the uniform mods. I've been so involved in armor modding that I've seldom had the time to become familiar with the uniform mods. Which probably make me perfect for the job of trying to create a pair of uniform RuleSets that encompass all the choice out there, without discriminating against anyone.

So, here's the plan. I'd like to create one CMMOS RuleSet for German uniforms and one CMMOS RuleSet for Allied uniforms for inclusion with CMMOS version 3.0 (which is entering beta today). Both summer and winter uniforms will be handled from the same RuleSet. We'll iron out all the naming conventions and each individual mod owner can re-release their mods as CMMOS compliant (with or without my assistance as necessary/requested).

There's also plans afoot to provide lot's and lot's of Allied uniform sleeves for the various units, so that will need to be ironed out as well (and I'm really counting on the uniform grognards to straighten this out as I'm clueless). Due to the sheer size of the covered material, the sleeves might end up in a separate RuleSet, but would still work with the "standard" Allied uniform RuleSet, if that's even possible.

So, to throw some urgency into the discussion, I will start allocating space in the RuleSets on a strictly first-come-first-served basis (which means the sooner you get in on this, the further towards the top of the list your uniforms will be featured). The only other way I could see doing this fairly would be based on the chronological order of the original mod's release, but I don't have that information. Also, I'll need to know what "options" your uniforms come with (e.g. different helmets, gloves, boots, etc.).

So, let's make some magic!

Gordon

[Michael Dorosh]

Unless Darknight is also working on the CMMOS files for the Commonwealth sleeves, I would be happy to take that one on.

We have sleeves for just about every infantry battalion in the Canadian and British armies in NWE. I believe there will be glove options for all of them as well. There will be several hundred different options - perhaps Darknight should stop work until the naming conventions are set up. I would like to see a naming convention for each battalion anyway, so that we could also have a Unit button, and one click would change not only uniform sleeves, but also helmet markings, vehicle markings, interface, etc., so that all graphics in the game become specific to that one unit. We discussed this before, Gordon. Would take up a hell of a lot of hard disk space, but perhaps we could break it down by division, so if you weren't interested in a particular division, you didn't have to download them.

[Olle Petersson]

I think the first detail to consider is what different options that are needed for each unit type.

The ones I can think of straight off are:

Summer/Winter

Plain/Camouflage

"Summer" possibly divided into Spring/Summer/Autumn or Early/Late pattern

... and then all the different unit insignia.

Hope this start things going.

Cheers

Olle

[Gordon]

Olle,

Yes, you're right. All those variables need to be accounted for (except winter since the BMPs are separate), including "formation" (e.g. SS, Ranger, Paratrooper, commando, etc.), if you will, for lack of a better term.

Gordon

[Hensworth]

Merely here to applaud the effort.

[Darknight (DC)]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr> We have sleeves for just about every infantry battalion in the Canadian and British armies in NWE. I believe there will be glove options for all of them as well. There will be several hundred different options - perhaps Darknight should stop work until the naming conventions are set up. I would like to see a naming convention for each battalion anyway, so that we could also have a Unit button, and one click would change not only uniform sleeves, but also helmet markings, vehicle markings, interface, etc., so that all graphics in the game become specific to that one unit. We discussed this before, Gordon. Would take up a hell of a lot of hard disk space, but perhaps we could break it down by division, so if you weren't interested in a particular division, you didn't have to download them. <hr></blockquote>

The plan is to mod each Canadian/British Battalion (and I have a generic Polish sleeve too). The breakdown should probably be something like the following (for the Commonwealth anyway):

Cdn/UK/Pol

Div#

Regt/Bn #

alt versions

I hope I didn't miss anything.

[Gordon]

Darknight_Canuck,

For the "Regt/Bn #", do you mean something like the Regts ordinal position within the Division?

e.g. the 51st (Highland) Division's 5th Battalion "Black Watch" would be "_uk_51_4"?

Thanks,

Gordon

[AndrewTF]

To make things more confusing, I thought I'd add that I've created new trouser BMP files for my German uniform mod, including new camo trousers to match my previously released tan/water and splinter camo smocks.

I've been doing a lot of mix-and-matching of my uniform mods and using the camo trousers with the fieldgray tunics and it looks pretty cool. So, will CMMOS allow users to swap different parts of a uniform mod like trousers and helmet covers, or will it only allow use of one complete mod at a time?

Of course I only ask this out of idle curiosity as I'm a stinkin' Mac user and can't use CMMOS (yet).

[Gordon]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by AndrewTF:

I've been doing a lot of mix-and-matching of my uniform mods and using the camo trousers with the fieldgray tunics and it looks pretty cool. So, will CMMOS allow users to swap different parts of a uniform mod like trousers and helmet covers, or will it only allow use of one complete mod at a time?

Of course I only ask this out of idle curiosity as I'm a stinkin' Mac user and can't use CMMOS (yet). <hr></blockquote>

Andrew,

The current German uniform RuleSet that Maximus designed allows mixing and matching of helment and pants on a per-uniform basis. For instance, one uniform might have no options, while another might have 4 different helments and 2 pants options. As part of the reissue of the RuleSet, we'll want to explore making this more generalized.

Regarding being a stinkin' Mac user, I guess nobody's perfect. Love your uniforms, though.

Gordon

[Darknight (DC)]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr> For the "Regt/Bn #", do you mean something like the Regts ordinal position within the Division?

e.g. the 51st (Highland) Division's 5th Battalion "Black Watch" would be "_uk_51_4"?

Thanks,

Gordon <hr></blockquote>

Using the ordinal numbers would get confusing for most people, I think. Here's some practical examples of what I meant:

1) Royal Canadian Regt

5012_Cdn_1D_RCR.bmp

Note: I don't think that any 2nd Bn of a Cdn Regt fought in ETO, so Bn # isn't necessary.

2) 5th Bn Black Watch, 51st Highland Div

5012_UK_51D_5BW.bmp

Note: This would ID the division in which the unit is serving and the battalion # of the unit from the parent regiment.

I've gotten used to making up 3-4 letter short forms for each regiment (and I think they're pretty easy to decipher for most people interested in them). The Division would have a "D" after it's # for Infantry, "A" or "AD" for Armoured, and "AB" for Airborne. I think the division numbers are important in order to organize the files properly and to keep track of units which may have served in multiple divisions in the ETO (I have come across a number of these). Also, if an alternate version of the same unit is available (I found a few units where I couldn't decide which looked better), then _alt# would be tacked onto the end of it.

[Gordon]

Darknight_Canuck,

That's great, that's what I prefer, it was just your use of "regt #" that had me confused.

Gordon

[Michael Dorosh]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Darknight_Canuck:

Note: I don't think that any 2nd Bn of a Cdn Regt fought in ETO, so Bn # isn't necessary.

<hr></blockquote>

That assumption is correct; 2nd Battalions were Reserve battalions that stayed in Canada.

[Gordon]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

That assumption is correct; 2nd Battalions were Reserve battalions that stayed in Canada.<hr></blockquote>

A reserve against what? An invasion of tourists from America?

Wait! I know, to protect Canada from the bad American beer.

Gordon

[ 11-20-2001: Message edited by: Gordon ]</p>

[Darknight (DC)]

One thing I forgot....if this is going to be standardized, then I guess the 2-letter mod artist identifier needs to be in there somewhere as well since there are different versions of the same uniforms out there (eg. A. Fox's, M. Dorosh's, etc)...

[Gordon]

Darknight_Canuck,

Well, possibly, but if there are multiple feldgrau uniforms or splinter camo uniforms out there it shouldn't be a problem to distinquish them in the names. How specific to a particular uniform mod will your sleeve mods be? If there are 5 different UK uniform mods out there will we need a different version of the sleeve mod for each?

Gordon

[Michael Dorosh]

In this case (I know you were kidding, Gordon, but I will explain anyway) the Reserve title indicates part-time - just like today. Wednesday night and weekends only. The Canadian Army was divided into

The Canadian Army (Active) which meant full time troops, and included the 1st, 3rd, 4th etc. battalions of the various regiments.

The Canadian Army (Reserve) was usually the 2nd battalion of the various regiments, and these guys only paraded once a week or so.

The Canadian Army (Overseas) would include the 1st Battalions of the various regiments that were serving in the UK, NW Europe, Italy, Jamaica, the Pacific, etc.

[Darknight (DC)]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr> Well, possibly, but if there are multiple feldgrau uniforms or splinter camo uniforms out there it shouldn't be a problem to distinquish them in the names. How specific to a particular uniform mod will your sleeve mods be? If there are 5 different UK uniform mods out there will we need a different version of the sleeve mod for each?

Gordon <hr></blockquote>

The sleeve mods I'm doing right now are specific to Andrew Fox's Commonwealth uniform mods...that doesn't mean they can't be interchanged into other uniform mods, only that Andrew's mods are the base and he deserves credit for them (it's more of a factor when I had to add insignia to the 5011.bmp for some units).

[Michael Dorosh]

All of the Fox Commonwealth uniforms - winter and summer - use the 5011 file (or 15011), meaning the sleeve doesn't have to change when the rest of the uniform does. The same sleeve will go with all of them (ie green blanco gear, khaki gear, leather jerkin, or my own D-Day assault jerkin).

Winter whites are another story, but there are no mods out there for those except my own lo-res ones, and you don't find unit insignia on those in any event so that scarcely matters.

[Gordon]

That's great. I'd hate to have to download 23 MB worth of sleeves 5 separate times because the various uniform mods were woven from different cloth.

Gordon

[ 11-20-2001: Message edited by: Gordon ]</p>

[Darknight (DC)]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr> That's great. I'd hate to have to download 23 MB worth of sleeves 5 separate times because the various uniform mods were woven from different cloth.

Gordon <hr></blockquote>

You don't know the half of it....if I had to spend 5x as much time doing this as I do now, I think my wife would divorce me, not to mention that the minutiae (???) of it all would probably drive me insane...