The LOS tool and terrain reconnaisance

[Tero]

I stumbeled over this data when looking for something else. I post it here for the benefit of Germanboy and other who were of the opinion that it is hogwash to think there ever was such a thing as pre-battle terrain reconnaisance.

Found it at:

http://carlisle-www.army.mil/cgi-bin/usamhi/DL/showdoc.pl?docnum=352

Handbook on German Forces (TM 30-410), May 1945, Chaps IV-VII

h. TERRAIN RECONNAISSANCE (Geländeerkundung). The Germans place great emphasis on terrain reconnaissance, realizing the influence terrain has upon the conduct of operations. Most of their usual reconnaissance missions include terrain reconnaissance tasks. Terrain may be so important at times as to require reconnaissance by special units. Ground and air reconnaissance units give special attention to the road net - its density, condition, road blocks, mines, and demolitions - as well as to the terrain itself, particularly tank country.

And just for fun the usual über-Finn plug in, this time substantiated by a non-Finnish source which is available on the net to boot

3. Combat in Woods

.... From Finnish troops, the Germans learned a successful method of using mortars in woods. The mortar observers, accompanied by a telephone operator, move with the advanced element. The line back to the mortar crew is exactly 200 yards long. One man is detailed to see that the line does not get hung on the way and as far as possible runs in a straight line. When the advanced element contacts the enemy, the observer judges the distance from himself to the target and adds the 200 yards to the mortar range. Bracketing of fire for adjustment is considered too dangerous because of the close proximity of friend and foe.

[ 08-23-2001: Message edited by: tero ]

[Andreas]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tero:

I stumbeled over this data when looking for something else. I post it here for the benefit of Germanboy and other who were of the opinion that it is hogwash to think there ever was such a thing as pre-battle terrain reconnaisance.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Please refrain from misquoting me. I never said that. As I said, I am through debating anything with you, and if you think that deliberately misrepresenting me is getting you that, you are mistaken.

How is your game going? Programmed the horses in yet?

[Tero]

Please refrain from misquoting me. I never said that.

Your own words on the subject:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

Tero, you are grasping for straws. Resistance, Germans knowing the place, yadda yadda recce planes, yadda topo maps.

.....

But portraying it as 'realistic' when you have to come up with all sorts of fancy stories to make it appear so is laughable, and should be treated with the contempt it deserves.

Then tero came on, claiming that a LOS tool from any point on the map would be realistic because (amongst other reasons) the Germans had been in France for four years, so they would know the lay of the land. He lost me then and there, and I refuse to take him or any further arguments from him pushing this line seriously. I may miss out on something big because of that, but to be honest, I don't think so.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

To me that sounds like you thought terrain reconnaisance was hogwash.

[ 08-23-2001: Message edited by: tero ]

[Andreas]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tero:

[QB][qb]To me that sounds like you thought terrain reconnaisance was hogwash.[QB]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Funny, to me it sounds like you are still grasping for straws. But you will read into my words what you want to, as you always do, and that is your prerogative. Enjoy. But that is also why I am not debating you.

I never discounted terrain reconnaissance as it was historically done.

[Panzer_Meyer]

Tero, I partially do agree with you on the fact that terrain reconnaisance is important. It can make a difference between a good defense and a bad retreat.

I am reading a book right now "Deadly Combat: a German soldeirs memoir's of the eastern front" In this book the soldiers becomes an officer and he explains how when they changed possitions, he and a group of men scouted fro the enemy but also checked the terrain and looked for any good LOS possitions as where to place MGs. They cleared underbrush and cut down trees to make better view.

So yes terrain reconnaisance was a part of the German army and I am sure it was part of every army. Terrain is very important, so it would make sense to know ahead of time, before an attack what kind of ground you will be attacing over.

But, being in a country 4 years don't mean ****. I could live in a country 4 years and not know anything about except the city i live in. Sure the Germans attacked through it, but terrain does change. So being in a country 4 years, does not mean someone will know every little tree and clump of dirt there is.

And Germanboy and tero, lighten up. You are taking this and everything alse way to seriously.

[Slapdragon]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Germanboy:

How is your game going? Programmed the horses in yet?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are they Finnish talking Pulkka horses with 155 cannons on their backs and tail mount 15mm machineguns?

[Wilhammer]

I'd like to add a tip on terrain recon....

I use the rotate command (any move command will due) and trace it out to great length to check LOS. This especially works great for contour checking.

Try it, plot movement for a unit, and as you check out places to stop them (esp hulldown positions), trace a rotate command from your current plotted waypoint. Follow the pink line, and "see" from this potential future position how it follows the lay of the land and how it passes near obstacles.

This is the closest thing I have found to checking LOS from any point on the map.

I prefer to get in the habit of using the rotate command for this to avoid accidentally forgetting I did this so that some poor unit wanders off the plan.

This helps me a bunch.